Recently a friend of mine asked me why I didn’t write posts about Thai bar girls and the sex scene to increase traffic on my blog. Everyone else does!
The answer was short and simple, yet the explanation slightly longer.
In short, quite frankly, it’s boring. The subject matter of bar girls has been discussed into oblivion on hundreds of other websites.
Blog and forum owners happily let people thrash out misogynistic musings on their sites as link-bait to drive traffic. But this isn’t what I set up my blog to do. And the reality is that Thailand is so much more than the bar scene.
It is part of it, but I think many expats would agree that the longer you live here the more insignificant it becomes.
I don't want to waste time discussing questions like, “Can bar girls ever be faithful”? or “Are bar girls getting fatter?” Or discussing stories of men who feel aggrieved at having struck up a relationship with a bar girl and spent tons of money, only for her to move on to a new “handsome man”.
I don't enjoy degrading people, either. I don't enjoy talking about women as if they are inhuman, as if they are objects to be sexually exploited. I have a daughter, a mother, and a wife…Go figure.
Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with casual sex. I am not a prude. What consenting adults do together is up to them. Neither do I pretend that men can stop mentally objectifying women. It's nature. Men are designed to see women as potential mates, and vice versa.
But we do have moral agency. We are capable of respect, of understanding, of compassion, of kindness.
And for all the hatred and dehumanizing comments on forums and blogs, people would do well to remember that these girls are daughters, sisters and mothers, and at one time children with dreams and aspirations – just like our own children.
The point of this article about bar girls is to go beyond the heavy make-up and high heels and look at the industry from the ground up. To strip naked (no pun intended) the circumstances that have resulted in so many women entering the industry and ultimately being dehumanized by punters and society at large.
Bar girls in Ao Nang
Life Before the Bar
Firstly, let’s look at the demographic of the average Thai prostitute.
A sub-standard school education, usually incomplete.
Married young in a rural village – usually in the North or North East somewhere – and partnered by her family with an ill-suited young man.
The husband usually tires of the novelty of marriage quite quickly and swaps puppy love for boozing, gambling and womanizing (or at least 2 or the 3) like his father did, and his father before that.
Boy leaves girl with one or two kids. Girl receives no social security money from the state and no child maintenance from the father of her children.
So, pressure falls on the girl to find work to support the children and her aging parents, who, by the way, she has already disappointed by having a failed marriage, and further upset by now being a single mother and scarring the face of family pride.
Girl then becomes determined to provide her children with a better life, and to elevate the face of her family in the village.
Girl hears from another girl (friend, “cousin”) that working in a bar in Bangkok, or on one of the popular tourist islands, is the best way to make fast money. The added bonus is that she can meet a rich foreign boyfriend who will be prepared to take on her kids and support her parents (or a story very similar to this).
Due to her lack of education, the girl then weighs up the other options as a cleaner, rice farmer or factory worker, in which she faces long, boring hours of work that will never provide enough money to make her children’s/parent’s lives any better than their current situation.
Essentially it's stay dirt poor or take a risk.
So, girl migrates to the city/island to start her covert initiation into the world of prostitution; most likely with very little idea what it entails and what she's letting herself in for.
*At this point it should be noted that some (not all) girls arrive at bars in debt to middlemen who arrange travel and accommodation from their province. So even if the girl wants to leave after arrival, she will have to work off that debt first.
This is a devious way to keep the recruitment numbers high and the deserters low. I mean, once you've sold your body a few times the deed is done; it's pointless returning to disappoint your parents with the news that you didn't make it in the “big city” after all. Once you've crossed the line, you might as well try and make it work, right?
Cultural & Social Obligations
Having travelled to the North and North East of Thailand many times and seen the lack of opportunity and pressures of money (debt) and “keeping face” that young girls grow up with, when I see a girl standing outside a bar on the street, no matter how sexy she is trying to act, I find it impossible to see her as anything other than a victim of circumstance, of a system that in many ways socially engineers and steers women towards prostitution.
What I see in the bar is not a piece of meat to be exploited, but a girl that grew up believing that one day, when she finishes school, she will find a respectable job (or start a business) and be able to make her parents proud. If you live in Thailand you'll know that this is very much the Thai dream.
I don’t see a girl who grew up aspiring to be a dirty old man’s fantasy, or a girl who aspired to regularly sleep with men she doesn't find attractive.
I see a girl who naively bought into the idea that her teenage husband would stay faithful and do his best to always support her and their kids, and was victim of the antiquated cultural requirement that a girl must marry the first seemingly decent boy her parents catch her flirting with.
I see a girl who felt that she had to sell her soul for the bigger picture, to go against the morals she was brought up in an attempt to better the future of her family.
I see a girl who has sacrificed her own happiness, and potentially her mental stability, for the benefit of her family. No one should ever have to do that.
And then I see a plethora or foreign men coming to exploit, not help, as they may proclaim, the unfortunate situation of a woman failed by a society that does not provide social welfare or adult education programs for single mothers, and does not hold men in the slightest bit accountable for their offspring.
Is it Really a True “Choice”?
No doubt someone will surf on through here and tell me that many bar girls do the job by choice, making that self-serving observation that “she doesn't have to do it if she doesn't want to”.
But as I have covered, the cultural pressures and limited choice of economic progression force the hand into the fire. So the word “choice” becomes an ambiguous one at best.
When you debate this issue and use the word “choice” as your key defense, do you mean the same “choices” (quote on quote) that you would accept for your kids or close friends? I very much doubt it.
If the alternative career paths wouldn't provide an acceptable level of living for our children, then how can we so flippantly use the word “choice” as a justification for what these girls do?
Of course, there will always be a handful of women in Thailand who left a decent career to make more money in the sex industry; every one seems to have an anecdotal story in this regard. But we know this isn't the norm; it's not a common occurence.
The Reality Behind The Heels & Smiles
I won’t lie. My eyes danced when I first saw the bright lights, high heels, elegance and youthful beauty of the girls in the go-go bars.
It really didn’t compute that the hostesses in the bars were actually no different to the hookers lurking in the back streets of Soho, London. I couldn't see any hollow-eyed druggies with greasy hair, and there were no bad attitudes looking for the quickest transaction possible.
This all looked so friendly and welcoming.
And it's this sugar-coated version of prostitution that makes it easier to ignore the truth.
However, the more I learnt about the industry behind the scenes – the social-economic structure of the country, the systematic oppression of the lower classes, and rural prejudice – the easier it became to see the emptiness behind the smiles and gracious gestures.
Strangely, men seem to get so caught up in the ego trip of being a “handsome man” that they neglect to notice that these bar girls are young Thai women, and by preference probably don't actually fancy western men.
In fact, the majority of young Thai women are into teenage Korean pop stars and Channel 7/Channel 3 Thai movie stars.
Yet being from the social underclass, divorced/separated (more often than not with kids) prior to the bar, the only Thai men they have access to on a serious relationship level are also from that social underclass.
These are low-income earning men that will (generally) resemble similar characteristics to the inadequate man they were once married to. As we know, gambling, alcoholism and domestic abuse is rife in such economic settings.
Again, consider that word “choice”.
Moreover, once a Thai girl has been in the bar, she will struggle to get a Thai boyfriend at all. Therefore, once in the bar, a westerner/foreigner isn’t a choice, he is the only option.
If you know an iota about Thai culture, you'll know that a girl who works, or has worked, in a farang-style beer bar will struggle to earn the respect of other Thais going forward. Thais, unfortunately, tend to be able to tell working girls / ex-working girls simply by their mannerisms and by asking a few strategic questions.
Of course, few will refer to her as a prostitute. In fact, the word prostitute is seldom used, out of politeness.Two of the more preferred terms are “Poo ying gaan koon” (lady working at night) or “Poo ying haa gin” (lady looking/finding (something) to eat).
A girl who has worked in the bar, regardless of whether she bags a rich farang or not, will suffer a lifetime of gossip and stares from the village folk, not to mention the standard whispers and looks most Thai women endure when they have a foreign boyfriend.
What's strange is that Thailand has an abundance of what one might refer to as average, middle-class single women – university educated and hardworking. Yet many foreign men choose to hang around in the bar scene paying for sex, and end up with a partner from that scene. They then wonder why it all goes belly up.
Not so long ago a friend of mine was in town and he wanted to walk down the infamous bar-laden Soi Nana in Bangkok.
We paced the cesspit of hawkers, child and amputee beggars, ladyboy and female street hookers and plethora of foreign men.
Rather than thinking, “Wow look at all these hot women”, I thought, “Man, this must be one of the most soulless places on the planet, one that exists for one reason only: for the desperate to feed off the desperate”.
Maybe it's just me.
Bar Girls Want the Same Things We Do
A Thai bar girl isn’t a nymphomaniac seeking a life of endless sexual encounters (though I'm sure someone will anecdotally comment that “I met this girl once….”) as many expats and forum lemmings would have you believe.
No, she is seeking a guy to take her off the lowest run of the ladder and elevate her and her family’s status to heights that simply wouldn’t be possible trying to run the capitalist gauntlet from her current standpoint.
She, like every other human being, wants to be loved, respected and valued.
And this is the one thing guys that frequently pursue encounters with bar girls can’t face up to: That underneath all the makeup and forced sexual suggestion is a girl who wants to be loved. Yet she acts like a woman who can’t be broken.
I think Bob Dylan put it best when he sung:
“She takes just like a woman, yes, she does
She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does
And she aches just like a woman
But she breaks just like a little girl”
And before someone comes at me with a “you're victimizing women by treating them like children” comment, the above lyrics can be applied to anyone in a vulnerable place in life.
The reason guys hate to be reminded of the human side of a bar girl is because it would take the “She loves it!” shine off of the conquest.
Imagining that one of those girls could be your own sister or daughter brings the conscience into play. It makes guys realize that these girls have feelings and emotions beyond the fantasy of the delirious male ego that believes these girls are more than happy to be commodified for sex.
Becoming a full-time bargirl takes conditioning.
Just look at the face of a new addition to a bar, and then return two months later to see her stripped of all that might have been sacred. I have seen it with my own eyes….
I will never forget one very timid girl, who looked like a rabbit in headlights on arriving at her new place of work. Her “cousin” had invited her to take up a position as a “waitress”.
It took her weeks to be conditioned to “go with a customer”. I know this because the bar boss was an acquaintance of mine for a while.
Three months later my travels took me away from the island, and as my taxi passed the bar on the way to Samui airport, she was swinging on the dance pole, hair extensions, knee high boots and calling out to men walking by. The transformation was quite something, but sad all the same.
The way men generally discuss these girls is as if they were “born to do it”. Again, this is a self-preserving attempt to separate their actions from the cause.
Perhaps some do take to it like a duck to water, but the majority have to be broken in, so to speak, and are helped along by the Mama Sang and other working girls.
The Irony of Similarity Between Bargirl & Customer
Ironically, the average sex-tourist isn’t so far removed from his subject.
He may talk a good conquest to his pals, but secretly he longs to be admired as a man, to be loved, to be held, to be respected and noticed by women; things life may have failed to ever present amicably, or in a way that would be considered “normal” to other guys.
So he chooses to pay, which may be the only avenue he has to getting close to what he really wants from a woman. There's nothing wrong with that, if the transaction is consensual, right?
Yet all too often in this transactional realm, the man falls foul to the strategic lies of a seasoned player.
He gets too involved. The lines get blurred. He forgets it is a financial agreement and not a real romance and ends up losing not just his integrity but a considerable financial investment.
His bitterness at being “played” then results in misogynistic behavior, and the need for revenge through the physical and verbal degradation of Thai women.
Psychological Impact, Alcoholism, Drug Abuse
Can a bar girl have a normal relationship after the bar?
Of course it's possible, and I am sure there are many happy relationships that have lasted the distance between bar girls and westerners.
The amount of foreigners maintaining contact with bargirls and sending money to them once they return home is testament to the fact that in many cases the needy find the needy on common ground.
She admires and he complies, she “takes care of him” and he “takes care” (financially) of her beyond the bar. The success rate, however, comes into question when reading all the negative stories foreigners post online.
On the other hand, it should be considered that sleeping with men twice/thrice their age, and men they generally have no physical attraction to, week in week out, will take its toll on the majority of girls.
No doubt that in some cases there is psychological damage, similar to that experienced by victims of sexual abuse, albeit the bargirl act is consensual and transactional.
Therefore, it isn’t surprising that so many girls experience breakdowns and turn to drugs and alcoholism and end up in refuges. The reality is that post the bar, most struggle to ever have a normal, loving relationship.
The lucky few are able to settle for a retired expat who is prepared to pay the bills in return for regular thrills. True love really isn’t an option for most bargirls, period. But then what is true love, anyway?
When you hit the bars on a Saturday night, I wouldn't blame you for thinking the last paragraph regarding drug and alcohol abuse and refuges is a little far fetched. I would have thought so many years ago.
Until I taught martial arts at a women’s refuge in Bangkok, that is.
I met well over 50 women there who were victims of bars. Those that had broken down psychologically, those who experienced family abandonment when their parents found out (or rather when the friends and other villagers found out what they already knew), and perhaps most disturbingly, those who got pregnant after having been raped by pimps/facilitators, bar owners or customers.
I was shocked by the stories.
When I tell the “It’s a choice” guys about the refuge, they simple can’t believe it, either.
Neither can they believe that many girls are bought and pimped, and in fact can’t leave the bar until the debt is paid in full. Admittedly this is getting rarer, but it still happens in the very poorest of rural areas.
For these girls, the fewer customers you go with the more your rent accumulates on top of the money that was paid for you to secure the job in the first place.
Of course, not every case fits this template, and there are many variations in circumstance. But the point is that the majority of bar migrations aren't fully transparent, and the majority of girls, however they may seem now, would have been largely ignorant to the life that would become them.
In Conclusion
Three thousand words in and I hope you may now understand why I do not glamorize the bar scene on my blog.
My blog isn’t a platform to speak about these girls as toys to be played with and treated with contempt.
My blog is not a corner of the web that will degrade, marginalize, or spread hatred.
A Thai bar girl is a woman, just like your mother, sister, daughter, girlfriend or wife.
The key difference between the dearly loved women in your life and a bar girl is an education and a level playing field of opportunity, which amounts to nothing more than the lottery that is birth.
I want to end by playing you Mae Sai by the group Carabou.
The song is about a girl from the North who goes away to become a prostitute to make money for her parents. She gets hooked on drugs and by the time she returns her mother is dead.
The video has English subs, so don't worry if you don't speak Thai.
Makes you think, huh?
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bibblies says
Well that's a strawman argument, absurd considering that I've had long-term relationships with such girls and have experienced things that you never see. How could I live with and love people and put up with the many drawbacks without having compassion for them? You, on the other hand, despite saying what fine people these girls are, would never live with one.
I don't agree that you have 'extensive experience'. You don't seem to have much experience at all. Most of what you've written could have come from The Guardian letters page from someone who's never been to Thailand. It's the same cliched view that poverty is the only reason, all girls are angels, all men are evil. That's why I attacked it. What am I supposed to do? Clap and say, well done, you've pointed out that these women are people too and usually poor? Duh, I never thought of that before?
Because I attack your simplistic analysis, it doesn't indicate that I don't acknowledge that most of the girls got dealt a bad hand. They did. But you never acknowledge that a lot of girls in the same position, with the same hand, DIDN'T choose this route, that a lot of countries with worse poverty, DON'T do this and some make it worse through their own choices.
About it being more prevalent in Thailand, I'll agree that mixing in the wrong circles will be bad in any country. But lying is more prevalent in the country as a whole too, as is corruption. It's about face coming above honesty. White lies and darker ones...
Dec 05, 2014 at 5:33 pm
TheThailandLife says
Dec 05, 2014 at 6:25 pm
bibblies says
So you agree it's not simply a question of 'poverty' then? Glad we agree.
You're informed, but only a little. You haven't lived with any such girls, been a customer, boyfriend or husband for a long period of time. That's a good thing - you've got your own life, etc - but it means you're not nearly as informed as people who have. You've spent a tiny fraction of the time in their lives. How could you know more?
You do the same ;)
Nope, not a sore point at all. There was a time when I wished that more girls worked in bars. Motivations? Easy quick sex with girls I wanted the way I wanted it. Happy?
Am I proud of my actions? Not proud, but looking at it rationally, my desires didn't force the girls to become prostitutes, in the same way that the existence of murderous anger doesn't mean that a huge industry of contract killers has to spring up to greet it. In the same way, girls in poorer countries than Thailand didn't rush to become prostitutes just because I fancied a bit of sex. Why is that?
Change Thai society, parenting, education and attitude to responsibility - which is all fucked up in Thailand, I guess. Is that a tall order? You don't seem to agree that these things are as fucked up in Thailand though.
They're not my main points (although they're all true). My main point is that your 'poverty is the simple reason' theory doesn't stand up. There isn't a Pattaya in every poor country. Why is that?
I address all the causes again and again (many again above). You don't.
Sure, western men take advantage of the girls desire for money. And the girls take advantage of the men's desire for sex. But the 'dependants' (who mysteriously increase in number and size of demands as soon as the girl starts earning) take far worse advantage and do much more to create the problem. Their values are worse, greedy or irresponsible, more insidious in using the girl and cause her to have gone into this line of work in the first place. Ever seen a crying bargirl? She's never crying because of a customer. It's always family or 'friends'.
It's plain that you hate old western men (btw, I'm not much older than you are and was much younger when I first went to Thailand). Despite your denials, it shines through your writing and blinds you to other things. Sure, their motives were wrong. But they change and some of them do more good through being with the girl, protecting her from bad influences and patiently giving her a first chance at a good life than her family, friends or, to be frank,
people like you who only talk or have a fleeting impact on them.
Nah, I've never done that. I've just pointed out that they're human and better than the cartoon picture you draw. They're not innocent. But neither, usually, are the girls. They're both human. (You should really talk more to couples, instead of hating from afar!) Sometimes the girls even initiate the relationships out of loneliness.
No. This is what I mentioned has happened to Thai bargirls, who you say, have gone into the business to provide for a better future for their offspring. I know some who have worked for years, amassed enough to buy houses, cars and yet they still bring in their daughters to the same line of work. The offspring of Thai-farang parents are far less likely to end up like this. The people to whom this has happened have instilled bad values into their children. Farangs are more likely to break this cycle, especially if they take away the girls away from the immediate bad influences of Thailand.
Dec 05, 2014 at 7:17 pm
TheThailandLife says
...But then, if I was in a desperate situation; no job prospects due to lack of education, daughter to support and no state or ex-partner support, parents who expected me to support them and to whom I needed to culturally oblige, then I guess if one offered me money for sex I'd do it. It wouldn't be very nice of that lady to take advantage of my situation, though, would it?
Dec 05, 2014 at 9:02 pm
bibblies says
Have you ever seen a bargirl pull herself out of the hole she's in without a farang to help? Just wondering, after seeing yet another girl I know move on to another bar. I happen to know she has a draining Thai boyfriend and she's always in debt to loan sharks, though she must have earned a load over the many years she's been working like this.
You rarely see a girl leave the p4p business and stay out unless she's had a farang help her and haul her out.
There are plenty of exploitative influences outside old farangs...
Feb 24, 2015 at 9:36 pm
Sergiio says
Oct 03, 2019 at 1:42 am
TheThailandLife says
Oct 03, 2019 at 6:06 pm
Sergio says
Oct 19, 2019 at 1:30 am
tamsyn says
Jul 04, 2016 at 5:01 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jul 06, 2016 at 5:46 pm
Cheley Paige says
Dec 04, 2014 at 5:06 pm
TheThailandLife says
Dec 05, 2014 at 6:35 pm
bibblies says
And there's the thing.
The existing problem is not men wanting sex. That's a primal urge.
The existing problem and cause is that these parents and this society raise their kids as slaves to money and greed. They're not starving. They never improve their lot or those of their kids. The generations just get used to the easy money. It's mentality. Whether it's the desire of the parents to get money or the desire of the girls (and I've seen enough to see it's sometimes just them), that's the problem.
If you took all the western men's desires away and they stopped coming, do you really think that would stop? No. They'd just exploit each other in any way they could. That the men come isn't the problem, it's just a symptom of the real problem.
Dec 02, 2014 at 6:09 pm
bibblies says
In very many cases, the farang men pull the girls out of a hole - a hole made by the Thai girl's family, friends and society, together with the girl's own bad decisions. They provide emotional as well as financial support, a mature counterbalance and different, more logical but more compassionate, way of thinking to that they hear from their own family and friends.
I've very rarely heard any of the degrading talk that you mention from farang men. Probably I've heard more degrading things said by Thai girls about farangs.
You protest that you're not biased but your dislike of old western guys seeps through what you say and may cloud your judgement. Whatever these guys first motives, whatever your opinion of them, they often seem to be better for the girls than their own relatives and friends!
Dec 02, 2014 at 6:29 pm
TheThailandLife says
Dec 02, 2014 at 10:49 pm
bibblies says
Do you actually know any of these couples? You seem to be painting a picture that I don't recognise, of very old men abusing young women verbally/sexually/physically and providing little benefit with the girl being very unhappy. Perhaps you only really pay attention to the 80 year olds with the 20 year old garish companions, the ones that stand out?
I haven't seen that. In my experience, the men, although usually older than the women, aren't that much older and they don't abuse the women (I hear the gossip!) The women are happy, apart from food cravings ;) They're happy to get away from the stifling, limiting, environment of Thai society, to have some freedom and opportunities, to be in a fairer society or with a nicer partner who doesn't hit them and to be away from the endless problems. Apart from the food and, sometimes, the weather (though not always the weather!), they actually prefer it here.
Dec 03, 2014 at 7:06 pm
paul k says
when i first read it, i appreciated the fact that someone had spent so much time telling the "other side" of the story. i particularly like the sections relating to thai culture and the place it has for poor women from the north, poverty and education. however, after a second reading, i concluded that the focus on the "other side" is the article's downfall. as a piece of writing attempting to pull at the heart strings of its readers, it's OK. as a piece of information, i find it naïve and patronising. as much as i admire the fact that you have chosen to present this side of the argument, and as much as u seem like a decent fellow, i do have a number of questions that popped in to my head after the second reading. some of those questions are;
why did you fail to address the fact that many good looking and younger bar girls (and by many i refer to thousands across all of the red light districts around the country) as well as some of the rest, choose to continue to be a bar girl even after they have 5 farang wiring THB10,000 each in to their accounts every month? that's THB50,000 per month. that's big dollars over there. some get much more, and actively choose to continue to prostitute themselves when they do not have to. Noi from Living Dolls i know for an absolute fact was receiving THB80,000 per month and had been for 11 months when i met her. why did she actively choose to continue to work as a prostitute with THB80,000 coming in each month? she could have stopped work very very easily and still have been able to send a fortune up to her parents. and don't tell me she couldn't leave the bar because girls leave every single day. if, as you say, they hate the job so much, why do they not leave once the overseas farang boyfriends start wiring monies in to their account each month?
why did you fail to address the fact that when a bar girl lies her way in to the heart of a man desperate for love and attention, she is in fact committing a bigger sin than the man who visits Thailand as a sex tourist. using a false premise to get another human being to send you money is much worse an act than paying for consensual sex. bar girls systematically exploit the desperate tourist in an effort to extort him of his money, on the pretense that they are falling in love with him. this is a well known fact. there a numerous stories of how sex tourists have been caught in elaborate bar girl scams, to the extent that some men have lost hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars to these women, only to find later on that these women had a thai boyfriend all along and were also trying the scam on other westerners at the very same time. indeed, books have been written on this subject and some stories are horrific and led to suicide. everyone knows the farang is a fool for falling for it, but that does not give the bar girl an excuse to methodically rip off substantial sums of money from another human being and eventually ruin their lives.
i am a 28 yr old psychiatry student in England. i have been to Thailand twice. Bangkok, which i hated, then off to Phuket and samui as part of a buck's party 6 yrs later, which i equally disliked. i think the thai culture, parts of which you have alluded to, is one of the planet's best examples of how not to organise a society. i see humanity behaving badly. i lose faith in humanity when i think about Thailand. after returning from my second trip to Thailand, i spent tens of hours reading Buddhist texts, and i concluded that it's all meaningless, generic rubbish. i also know that the average thai is about as Buddhist as my parrot. they are religious by ritual, not by meaning. apparently the Buddhist world knows it, too.
when you have the time or inclination, please answer my two questions.
thanks
Dec 01, 2014 at 1:08 pm
bibblies says
Dec 01, 2014 at 6:54 pm
TheThailandLife says
Dec 01, 2014 at 9:57 pm
paul k says
in relation to the reply to my post, I will commence by thanking Mr blogger again for your time. I would also make the point at this stage that this will be my last submission. it will be my last submission because the intention of my two questions was to test you, with all due respect, but you failed to impress upon me your willingness to enter in to a meaningful discourse that moves away from why bargirls are in the bars to why they choose to stay and how they behave once they've been there for a while. I don't know why you don't want to address my two questions properly. why do you keep banging on about the reasons why a woman enters a bar, and not progress to discuss how she behaves once she's there? why don't you want to learn? I thought you liked helping these girls? knowledge through discussion will empower you, but you shut down my questions. you say you answered them, but you didn't. I don't know you or your blog, but you either won't or can't answer the two questions in any way that suggests to me you want to delve in to the mind of the established bar girl. I appreciate that a blogger builds a reputation and that you firmly sit at the pointy end on the popular side of the bar girl VS sex tourist argument (an argument we are not having), but I know of no agenda on your part, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you mean what you write.
i asked those two specific questions because i wanted to probe the issue on two levels; 1) to see whether or not you would use words similar to "sociopathic" in order to ascertain any perceivable difference between the emotive tone in your article and a reply to my post, and 2) to determine whether or not you were willing to move on from a simple discussion about where the girls come from and talk more about why they behave the way they do (very badly)once they've been working in a bar.
I'm not having a go at you. I reiterate that you're probably a solid chap. However, your post in response to mine was poor. I think you are blind on the topic. Your response disappointed me. you fell in to my trap and i didn't even try. Your language is irrational. Sex tourists to Thailand cannot be deemed, in general, sociopathic. If you said that in any convention or forum of professional minds in the fields of human psychology, psychiatry or anthropology you would be laughed out of the room.
Getting to the crux of my point... I believe you have a "one-third" argument. my asking of those two specific questions, and you not answering them, proves it. that's what this comes down to. you have a "one third" argument because when you are asked to talk about parts two and three - of which you are about to read - your argument actually becomes nonsensical. I have called it a "one third" argument because I believe any mature, adult discussion about bargirls necessarily has to include three parts, but you purposefully choose to talk about the first part only, because any discussion about parts two and three brings about your argument's unravelling. you don't want to talk about prostitutes choosing to remain in the industry because they want to. you don't want to talk about prostitutes being professional con-women.
when saying that our disquisition should include three parts, I suggest that the first part is an understanding of the horrible, culturally and economically oppressive environment in Thailand which leads young women to become prostitutes. the second part attempts to understand why these prostitutes, after being in the scene for a long time, choose to stay. the third part looks at why, after hanging around, these girls choose to enter in to a series of elaborate scams to extract and extort a man's life savings, irrespective of the consequences.
I quickly identified in your article that you have an argument very easily dismantled. any argument, as is the cliché, is only as strong as its weakest link. your argument's weakest link comes at the very point in time when someone like noi and the thousands or tens of thousands over the last thirty years like her, who sees the credits in her bank account amass very quickly through having money come in from overseas, commissions on drinks, shares of bar fines and selling sex, wakes up one day and chooses to continue to work. this is after she has sent an enormous amount of cash back up to Isaan and continues to see her coffers overflowing. this is after she has earned millions of baht after being "in the game" for 10+ years (Noi was 29, despite saying she was 22). you said noi's life will amount to emptiness and desperation. so why doesn't she leave? please, tell me why these girls, after accumulating so much money and buying houses and motorbikes and whatever else, do not leave!!! the truth is - you can't! you want to say that their parents won't let them, but I have heard that is definitely not the case. you want to say that society won't accept them anymore, but you know that after so long in the job and after accumulating so much wealth, they're above society and can settle very easily back in any village like a queen. you suggest they are marginailsed for being prostitutes. that's garbage. back in their village, they are princesses for as long as their mum has the biggest house. ive had this discussion more than once with a mammas an. ive read over 200 stickman weekly submissions, detailing first hand conversations and experiences. ive spoken to over 20 people who have paid for sex in Thailand. but your dialogue in all of your answers to all of your posters never addresses this point. at this very stage, the natural progression of any discussion about bargirls enters in to this "second part". as your argument stops here and goes no further, because you can't tell me why noi didn't leave her job years ago, you are a perpetrator of a "one third argument". you do not enter this second part of the conversation because it doesn't suit you to.
the "third part" of any meaningful discussion about bar girls commences when both sides are willing to talk about why an established bar girl not only chooses to stay in the bar, but also chooses to enter in to elaborate, multi-faceted, sophisticated and concurrent scamming. my second question attempted to enter you in to this "third part", but you didn't want to investigate it. foolishly, you chose to use the word 'transaction" on more than one occasion, when in fact these scams are the exact opposite. how is a bar girl fulfilling a "transaction" by accepting monthly payments on a false premise? your suggestion that this is a "transaction" is entirely laughable. it is a miraculously weak point. my girlfriend read your article and said on this point, and I quote..." this guy thinks it's Ok for a prostitute to screw a man over just because he's a punter!!". that came from her, a woman. any use of the word "transaction" in the context of a bargirl and a sex tourist only relates to payment for sex. to use it in the way you did, makes me wonder if you have given much though to this general topic at all. you also state that the man is in fantasy. I completely agree that any man who falls in love with a bargirl is a complete muppet. however, why do you not enter in to part three of this three part discussion and convince me why it is OK for a girl to extract monthly payments from a sad and desperate soul? we acknowledge he is a fool. and pathetic. but does that mean the bar girl is justified in her behaviour? I put it to you that your argument falls down here, quite easily, on the point of hypocrisy. if you and I hate a thai society which takes advantage of a young girl's circumstances to the point where she finds herself in prostitution, should we not also hate the circumstance wherein one human being takes advantage of another human being by extorting him of his money? why don't you see this point? please acknowledge that bargirls enter in to a machine-like system full of lies and deception which operates to extract and extort a sex tourist's life savings if he's dumb enough to fall for it. why don't you want to get stuck in to understanding why these bargirls ruin thousands of lives every year, just for money, when they are already making ten/twenty/thirty times the national average salary. this part, part three, as does part two, is staring you in the face, yet you chose to ignore it in my post. if you choose not to concede this point, it automatically follows that you find it acceptable that your mother, or my mother, be extorted of her life savings were they inclined to fall in love with a male sex worker in Africa or Asia.
Blogger, I dislike thai society more than you do. I hate the fact that the country is the way it is. i will never go back. I have never paid for a prostitute and never will. if you live there, i think you're settling for a crappy life. apparently the white man is treated like garbage over there, even if you aren't a sex tourist, from most of the locals and the authorities. but ive also been to parts of Africa and south America and can tell you they're shitholes too. we live on a planet where humanity has done a horrible job. I give humanity an F. in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we kill ourselves off within 300 years.
you might also like to know that, whilst ive been typing this post, thousands of guys have been jacking off to animal porn. thousands more over kiddie pics. your attitude toward the Thailand sex tourist comes from a width of knowledge about man and his attitude to sex that is a millimetre wide. it's not your fault, but you need to acknowledge it. you have no authority on the matter, at all. neither do I, but you're the one defending bar girls to the hilt when you know they ruin lives. it's not fair. the men don't deserve it. I don't know why the thai sex scene has created this machine of long term deceit. I don't know why thai women push men of balconies in pattaya every other day. and neither do you. and that's my point. you don't know enough to put all of the blame of what you think you see on the punter and the society. from where i stand, the bar girls may start off innocently but turn in to horrible creatures. not out of necessity, mind you, but out of greed! and out of all of those reasons we hate to see in a human being. maybe they're nasty before they get there?!
on a sexual level, there are tens of thousands of acts of men behaving badly far worse than the average visitor to pattaya. just look at japan. they adore the sexualisation of children. do you know about japan? those guys are completely bonkers. vending machines were once filled with used school girl panties. train groping went on unpoliced for decades. look up "enjo kosai" - thousands of Japanese men every year attempting to get in to the pants of girls in junior school.
in conclusion, I put it to you that you are the perpetrator of a "one third argument". you only want to talk about one third of the discussion. you don't want to talk about the fact that over the years tens of thousands of bar girls stay in the job for as long as they can, even though you say they hate it and many other commentators say they don't. you don't want to talk about the non-transactional attitude they have to prostitution, wherein they embark on doing and saying everything they can to juice money out of sex tourists even if it ruins their lives. I learned nothing form your opinion piece because earlier this year i read some pretty decent articles on the subject of the plight of the modern day Isaan girl. from your response to my post, I can only make one suggestion. if you're serious abut helping bar girls, enter in to parts two and three of what constitutes a proper conversation about bar girls. find out why they hang around, when they don't have to. find out why they think it's OK to extort money from sex tourists, after the male tells them he loves them, and why they push westerners off balconies. learn that, then you're really helping. ask them, if you care enough. learn. empower them by listening, learning, then acting.
it is only misogyny that leads one to believe that prostitutes are 100% victims, 100% of the time.
GOD ( IS THERE ONE?) BLESS YOU AND YOUR VOLUNTEER WORK. KEEP WRITING.
Dec 03, 2014 at 2:35 pm
TheThailandLife says
Dec 03, 2014 at 3:24 pm
bibblies says
To answer his first point (why they start): bad families and friends, lack of values and responsibility, poor decision-making, poverty or desire for money, upper and middle class Thais wanting to keep the education advantage and a society only willing to look the other way and leech off each other. And a few girls don't really seem to care what they do for money (I guess in the same way that some people in my home country will commit crimes for money. People have different values and yuck factors)
To answer his second point (why they stay after they've got enough money for their original stated goal): they get used to the lifestyle, the excitement, the easy money and, most of all, the feeling of being powerful in their own little circle. Of being the person to come to for a 'loan', to provide, to solve a 'problem' (money again). Of having and being able to show off the same goods as a middle class professional might have. I see girls continuing to work to pay off instalments on ridiculously expensive cars that are mostly for show. And, of course, laziness plays a part. It takes a hard-working mentality to be able to go back to a lower wage, even if it's to a respectable job. I've seen girls fail here. Perhaps they simply never had this kind of mentality? Hard work isn't a value that even many Thais seem to associate with themselves.
Third part? Why, after hanging around, some of these girls choose to enter in to a series of elaborate scams to extract and extort a man’s life savings, irrespective of the consequences? Actually, I haven't seen very many of those. Perhaps men are getting wiser with the advent of the Internet? But some girls can be nasty and cold and trample over a man's life without feeling even a little bit bad about it. How? Because (at least some of) Thai society is like that. It's not a Thai-farang thing or a woman to man thing. They do it to each other, even to friends and family. They exploit each other with abandon, leech off each other, lie and cheat each other. Of course, this happens everywhere in the world but it seems to be more prevalent in Thailand than my home country and it often sickens me. Something about different values ('face' coming above honour and honesty, I guess? And people don't seem to condemn others as much either, which just encourages such behaviour to continue)
Dec 03, 2014 at 6:50 pm
TheThailandLife says
A final thought to this string of rather provocative comments…
what’s strange in all this is that I wrote a post about having some compassion for these women instead of degrading and berating them and talking about them like animals: objects of flesh to be abused for money.
But instead of agreeing that this should be the case, since they are human - our mothers, sisters, daughters - Paul, and yourself, Bibblies, won’t address any of this and instead insist on seeking my agreement that the clients they rip off are the victims and the hard done by party. The focus always seems to be on erasing any compassion a person might have by further painting the picture of the devilish, unscrupulous bar girl who has no feelings.
But let’s look at the reality:
When you break it down, the average bar girl hasn’t had a very good life. In fact, through my experience, which is extensive, as I have shared with you previously Bibblies, about 98% were born into impoverished families, never finished school, were married and or had kids by 17-19 and left with very limited opportunity as a single mum with zero support from the father(s) of their children.
Yet the foreign client, although he may experience a loss of money in his encounter, has had far better opportunity in his life. The reason the elder man example is so prevalent in my comments and approach to this subject is a) because the stereotypical client tends to be 50+ and b) because like most people I would expect a man of this age to have the insight, dignity, humility and respect to not exploit this opportunity for such selfish gain to begin with, even if he does indeed become a victim.
That said, I still have compassion for anyone who naively falls into a trap and is victimised. I have stated more than once that I feel compassion for both parties – desperate people often attract a mirror of themselves, but seldom does it have a happy ending.
But the focus of the post was never meant to be foreign men. This post was triggered by the attitude of foreign men towards these women: comments on forums, things I’ve heard from associates, men in bars and alike. This post was about asking people to look at the situation with humaneness.
So, regardless of my view of the archetypal man who comes to Thailand to sleep with young prostitutes, and regardless of our opposing opinions of the things bargirls do and the way they feel inside, and about how society sees and treats such women, do you not have compassion for their rather unlucky lot in life? I mean, wouldn’t you want better for your daughter? Regardless of whether she was making 100,000 Baht a month?
Dec 03, 2014 at 9:33 pm
professor says
I've seen many women turn down the opportunity to leave. I've seen older sisters earning big money encouraging younger ones to enter the bar rather than helping them through education and improving their station.
You, sir, know little about Thailand and the Thai social structure.
And to think Thais know it well is farcical. Thais know so little about Thailand themselves.
I had a prostitute tell me (and no I don't use their services) that this is a fantastic job.
Now go and spend time with Thai prostitutes to see why they want to stay on in the industry. And don't get suckered into their deceptive stories about how bad it is.
Their short sightedness about the risks and dangers of this work is overlooked by their own families who they will choose over any foreign man even if the foreign man provides every opportunity for her and her family to transform their lives.
Feb 19, 2017 at 9:54 am
TheThailandLife says
Is that seriously aimed at me? With all due respect, I very much doubt you could keep up having a conversation with me regarding cultural and societal structures in Thailand.
"I had a prostitute tell me (and no I don’t use their services) that this is a fantastic job."
Anecdotes from the odd prostitute you've spoken to doesn't quite equate to field research, social studies and community support work.
Feb 19, 2017 at 4:48 pm
Khunpan says
Mar 03, 2016 at 10:57 am
Reallitey says
(On my opinion)
It's a big goverment system fail.
Third world land with a corrupt government and no system of support or social behavior and social backup nothing.
Yet thai people them self created a instinctual social plan
In Thailand you are alone, and you alone are the one to provide you're self and family
This is a instinctual manor of life.
Thai raised differently to western to this.
This system is the Onley good and structural thing in Thailand.
Thailand have no pension or anything else to fall back wen old of age or verry sick. Or support for childeren.
Thai man not forced to take care,. And fuck like rabbits. And go as they please. With no guilt or respect to take care his childeren or his wife. There is no social backup system.
And therefore it all comes to her.
If you need to survive u will do anything for it.
Thus far i respect thai bar girls but same time they are stone cold hearth less lady's that shaped this way, forced to be this way.
But all this can be stopped! If the government can make a stop to this.,
But will they ever do. Not when the economy relies on sex tourists. Why should they? As sex sells and will always do.
It's give and take. I don't feel pity for all bar girls, but I know some never make much money. But many of them do this by choice, and many are forced to do this too.
It's truly a choice, and at same time not a choice, it's also forced up on to survive in this harsh world.
Do remind yourself that sex trade is the oldest job on the planet.
But my opinion is that the thai government is to blame
Land without structural social society is to be exploited.
And do I remind that a thai lady sell her body for 5bth to a thai for buy food for herself.
And do remind this way go's back a long time to out of this world.
So choice or no choice you are forced to survive. You can say no but than you die.
So my point to this is that no one cares not falang or Thailand itself. And many bar girls also don't care. It's a way of living.
If u think as western Man you fuck a bar girl, in fact she fuck you better, beause she extract you're money.
Would i do same if i was a thai bar lady. Yes I do. Cause what else can make big money? How else can I support my family and baby this good? What better can u do if you not educated? Knowing also this can make more money than a doctor can make in Thailand who is indeed educated.
Survival in this world is a number one rule.
Do all thai bar girl want to be saved by a falang? No they don't.
Are all thai bar girl bad? No.
Thai love is different to western love.
For Thai, family is number one, after family, baby, after baby you.
If a bar girl stop support her family she will be outcast for life. For this many bar girl who break there bond with family will be outcast.
They chosen to do.
So do you have to feel pitey for all thai bar girls?
I would say a big no.
Nov 21, 2014 at 5:03 am
bibblies says
I'm privy to a lot of bar girl Facebook pages and it makes me sick to see the amount of mother worship that goes on, photos of the girls prostate on the floor, bowing at the feet of a patently fit hard-faced woman in her forties. The girls swear to get them enough money to buy a car, more extensions to a house, anything. The hard-faced mother just pulls the strings, raking it in, knowing full well in her heart what the girl does for this.
In UK society would a mother allow that to happen to get something she didn't really need? Would she tacitly, coldly, encourage it like these mothers do? No. My mother would never do that. That's why it doesn't happen.
The whole of society condones this, encourages it. Mother worship combined with lack of responsibility (both from parents and from young males fathering children) and lack of condemnation. Added to that, lack of questioning and proper education so they're never encouraged to break the cycle.
Nov 21, 2014 at 5:53 pm
Professor says
I've seen the rebuttals from the sex workers. 'What's wrong with what we do? We get to have a fun job, buy nice things, have a good life, make more money than working in an office."
I've seen women post on their profiles things like "I will do anything for you mother but please don't ask me for a Benz". And she'll get 100s of positive reactions to that post from her friends.
There are aspects of every culture which one needs to be objective and critical about. It's the only way to move forward. But the Thai culture itself has been designed around doing nothing about it. It's either simply "there's nothing we can do about it", or "it's up to them" or silence. There's a real lack of social conscience and understanding how damaging these aspects of the culture are to the society.
It's time Thais stop dancing around this issue of prostitution and the effects it and materialism are having on the society.
Want to know why the word "prostitute" is a bad word in Thai? Because it's the truth. Thai culture is not designed to be straightforward. That's why these issues exist and linger on. No one is motivated to be honest about what's going on.
So either they are lying about how horrible being a prostitute is. Or they're lying about how great it is. Either way, they're being dishonest.
Mar 26, 2017 at 4:55 am
Om says
Aug 26, 2014 at 1:27 am
Ben says
Aug 19, 2014 at 4:32 pm
RandomThoughtlessReader says
Jun 26, 2014 at 2:51 pm
bibblies says
I'm quite impressed with her warnings! ;) Behind most bargirls, I think there's something bad lurking in their families. It's not just poverty and she's probably alluding to that. You may soon tire of the childish arguments and concerns, as you suspect. 'Face' is childish in itself. I wouldn't buy any property in Thailand. One of the main reasons my wife and I moved away from Thailand was because of the unfair laws and the lack of trust in the system. A place where you can't own property or could be chucked out any second? A place where the elite keep the majority subdued by encouraging unearned deference and superstition rather than offer a fair education to all? Not for our children!
May 22, 2014 at 6:59 pm
Jim says
May 21, 2014 at 5:26 am
bibblies says
I'd expect people to not sell themselves or, more importantly, their children for the sake of a shiny new object. But that's just my expectations. Maybe I'm funny about that.
Were you hauling concrete blocks around at the age of 9?
I bet you would have cried when your mother handed you a small towel with an elastic holding it together when you asked for a “mickey mouse”.
I think I was doing paper rounds and chores. I might have been playing with bricks. I have a small daughter and she's as happy with a towel and piece of elastic (probably more so!) than with a Mickey Mouse toy. I try to play with her rather than dump her with my parents and I don't sell my butt to buy the stupid Mickey Mouse toy. Parents are supposed to teach you what matters and what doesn't. People adapt to their budgets. That's part of life. I played with sticks and stones. They were free and, as far as I know, still are. We didn't have credit cards.
You're 21. I first came to Thailand when I was about your age. There was a lot to learn and you can fall for a lot. Try looking at poor people who don't sell themselves or their children just to 'look big' in front of the village.
May 21, 2014 at 4:20 pm
Jim says
May 22, 2014 at 7:20 am
bibblies says
Try again. I've known more bargirls than you've had hot dinners (and have lived with a few).
When I say 'known', I mean known, not just your first trip where you think you know everything but you can't even speak Thai. (How can you think that you really know anything when you can't even understand their language?)
I've had about 20 years of knowing such girls. So I can pull up specific cases I've known where they DID have time for their children, if they wanted, but chose to spend their time instead going out with their 'friends' or boyfriends rather than returning home. And among these are, of course, people not working 19 hours a day. (That you should even think an average bargirl works 19 hours a day is laughable). Perhaps they're taking clues from their own parents, where they seem to regard the children as a pension?
Try living with a few, for months or years, and then come back to me and say if you think the same way. The families usually have a lot to do with it.
I hope you're not falling for anything. I wouldn't take what anyone says at face value. You've only heard one side of your girl's story. But you're young anyway. You could afford to lose everything and start again.
May 22, 2014 at 5:10 pm
Jim says
My woman already warned me:
1) You probably won't want to be with me after you meet my family. (realizing the potential burden)
2) You probably won't like my country any more once you speak Thai. (it already feels childish)
3) If after that you are sure you want to move, study the Law here before buying anything. (with her name on it)
May 22, 2014 at 6:09 pm