Recently a friend of mine asked me why I didn’t write posts about Thai bar girls and the sex scene to increase traffic on my blog. Everyone else does!
The answer was short and simple, yet the explanation slightly longer.
In short, quite frankly, it’s boring. The subject matter of bar girls has been discussed into oblivion on hundreds of other websites.
Blog and forum owners happily let people thrash out misogynistic musings on their sites as link-bait to drive traffic. But this isn’t what I set up my blog to do. And the reality is that Thailand is so much more than the bar scene.
It is part of it, but I think many expats would agree that the longer you live here the more insignificant it becomes.
I don't want to waste time discussing questions like, “Can bar girls ever be faithful”? or “Are bar girls getting fatter?” Or discussing stories of men who feel aggrieved at having struck up a relationship with a bar girl and spent tons of money, only for her to move on to a new “handsome man”.
I don't enjoy degrading people, either. I don't enjoy talking about women as if they are inhuman, as if they are objects to be sexually exploited. I have a daughter, a mother, and a wife…Go figure.
Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with casual sex. I am not a prude. What consenting adults do together is up to them. Neither do I pretend that men can stop mentally objectifying women. It's nature. Men are designed to see women as potential mates, and vice versa.
But we do have moral agency. We are capable of respect, of understanding, of compassion, of kindness.
And for all the hatred and dehumanizing comments on forums and blogs, people would do well to remember that these girls are daughters, sisters and mothers, and at one time children with dreams and aspirations – just like our own children.
The point of this article about bar girls is to go beyond the heavy make-up and high heels and look at the industry from the ground up. To strip naked (no pun intended) the circumstances that have resulted in so many women entering the industry and ultimately being dehumanized by punters and society at large.
Bar girls in Ao Nang
Life Before the Bar
Firstly, let’s look at the demographic of the average Thai prostitute.
A sub-standard school education, usually incomplete.
Married young in a rural village – usually in the North or North East somewhere – and partnered by her family with an ill-suited young man.
The husband usually tires of the novelty of marriage quite quickly and swaps puppy love for boozing, gambling and womanizing (or at least 2 or the 3) like his father did, and his father before that.
Boy leaves girl with one or two kids. Girl receives no social security money from the state and no child maintenance from the father of her children.
So, pressure falls on the girl to find work to support the children and her aging parents, who, by the way, she has already disappointed by having a failed marriage, and further upset by now being a single mother and scarring the face of family pride.
Girl then becomes determined to provide her children with a better life, and to elevate the face of her family in the village.
Girl hears from another girl (friend, “cousin”) that working in a bar in Bangkok, or on one of the popular tourist islands, is the best way to make fast money. The added bonus is that she can meet a rich foreign boyfriend who will be prepared to take on her kids and support her parents (or a story very similar to this).
Due to her lack of education, the girl then weighs up the other options as a cleaner, rice farmer or factory worker, in which she faces long, boring hours of work that will never provide enough money to make her children’s/parent’s lives any better than their current situation.
Essentially it's stay dirt poor or take a risk.
So, girl migrates to the city/island to start her covert initiation into the world of prostitution; most likely with very little idea what it entails and what she's letting herself in for.
*At this point it should be noted that some (not all) girls arrive at bars in debt to middlemen who arrange travel and accommodation from their province. So even if the girl wants to leave after arrival, she will have to work off that debt first.
This is a devious way to keep the recruitment numbers high and the deserters low. I mean, once you've sold your body a few times the deed is done; it's pointless returning to disappoint your parents with the news that you didn't make it in the “big city” after all. Once you've crossed the line, you might as well try and make it work, right?
Cultural & Social Obligations
Having travelled to the North and North East of Thailand many times and seen the lack of opportunity and pressures of money (debt) and “keeping face” that young girls grow up with, when I see a girl standing outside a bar on the street, no matter how sexy she is trying to act, I find it impossible to see her as anything other than a victim of circumstance, of a system that in many ways socially engineers and steers women towards prostitution.
What I see in the bar is not a piece of meat to be exploited, but a girl that grew up believing that one day, when she finishes school, she will find a respectable job (or start a business) and be able to make her parents proud. If you live in Thailand you'll know that this is very much the Thai dream.
I don’t see a girl who grew up aspiring to be a dirty old man’s fantasy, or a girl who aspired to regularly sleep with men she doesn't find attractive.
I see a girl who naively bought into the idea that her teenage husband would stay faithful and do his best to always support her and their kids, and was victim of the antiquated cultural requirement that a girl must marry the first seemingly decent boy her parents catch her flirting with.
I see a girl who felt that she had to sell her soul for the bigger picture, to go against the morals she was brought up in an attempt to better the future of her family.
I see a girl who has sacrificed her own happiness, and potentially her mental stability, for the benefit of her family. No one should ever have to do that.
And then I see a plethora or foreign men coming to exploit, not help, as they may proclaim, the unfortunate situation of a woman failed by a society that does not provide social welfare or adult education programs for single mothers, and does not hold men in the slightest bit accountable for their offspring.
Is it Really a True “Choice”?
No doubt someone will surf on through here and tell me that many bar girls do the job by choice, making that self-serving observation that “she doesn't have to do it if she doesn't want to”.
But as I have covered, the cultural pressures and limited choice of economic progression force the hand into the fire. So the word “choice” becomes an ambiguous one at best.
When you debate this issue and use the word “choice” as your key defense, do you mean the same “choices” (quote on quote) that you would accept for your kids or close friends? I very much doubt it.
If the alternative career paths wouldn't provide an acceptable level of living for our children, then how can we so flippantly use the word “choice” as a justification for what these girls do?
Of course, there will always be a handful of women in Thailand who left a decent career to make more money in the sex industry; every one seems to have an anecdotal story in this regard. But we know this isn't the norm; it's not a common occurence.
The Reality Behind The Heels & Smiles
I won’t lie. My eyes danced when I first saw the bright lights, high heels, elegance and youthful beauty of the girls in the go-go bars.
It really didn’t compute that the hostesses in the bars were actually no different to the hookers lurking in the back streets of Soho, London. I couldn't see any hollow-eyed druggies with greasy hair, and there were no bad attitudes looking for the quickest transaction possible.
This all looked so friendly and welcoming.
And it's this sugar-coated version of prostitution that makes it easier to ignore the truth.
However, the more I learnt about the industry behind the scenes – the social-economic structure of the country, the systematic oppression of the lower classes, and rural prejudice – the easier it became to see the emptiness behind the smiles and gracious gestures.
Strangely, men seem to get so caught up in the ego trip of being a “handsome man” that they neglect to notice that these bar girls are young Thai women, and by preference probably don't actually fancy western men.
In fact, the majority of young Thai women are into teenage Korean pop stars and Channel 7/Channel 3 Thai movie stars.
Yet being from the social underclass, divorced/separated (more often than not with kids) prior to the bar, the only Thai men they have access to on a serious relationship level are also from that social underclass.
These are low-income earning men that will (generally) resemble similar characteristics to the inadequate man they were once married to. As we know, gambling, alcoholism and domestic abuse is rife in such economic settings.
Again, consider that word “choice”.
Moreover, once a Thai girl has been in the bar, she will struggle to get a Thai boyfriend at all. Therefore, once in the bar, a westerner/foreigner isn’t a choice, he is the only option.
If you know an iota about Thai culture, you'll know that a girl who works, or has worked, in a farang-style beer bar will struggle to earn the respect of other Thais going forward. Thais, unfortunately, tend to be able to tell working girls / ex-working girls simply by their mannerisms and by asking a few strategic questions.
Of course, few will refer to her as a prostitute. In fact, the word prostitute is seldom used, out of politeness.Two of the more preferred terms are “Poo ying gaan koon” (lady working at night) or “Poo ying haa gin” (lady looking/finding (something) to eat).
A girl who has worked in the bar, regardless of whether she bags a rich farang or not, will suffer a lifetime of gossip and stares from the village folk, not to mention the standard whispers and looks most Thai women endure when they have a foreign boyfriend.
What's strange is that Thailand has an abundance of what one might refer to as average, middle-class single women – university educated and hardworking. Yet many foreign men choose to hang around in the bar scene paying for sex, and end up with a partner from that scene. They then wonder why it all goes belly up.
Not so long ago a friend of mine was in town and he wanted to walk down the infamous bar-laden Soi Nana in Bangkok.
We paced the cesspit of hawkers, child and amputee beggars, ladyboy and female street hookers and plethora of foreign men.
Rather than thinking, “Wow look at all these hot women”, I thought, “Man, this must be one of the most soulless places on the planet, one that exists for one reason only: for the desperate to feed off the desperate”.
Maybe it's just me.
Bar Girls Want the Same Things We Do
A Thai bar girl isn’t a nymphomaniac seeking a life of endless sexual encounters (though I'm sure someone will anecdotally comment that “I met this girl once….”) as many expats and forum lemmings would have you believe.
No, she is seeking a guy to take her off the lowest run of the ladder and elevate her and her family’s status to heights that simply wouldn’t be possible trying to run the capitalist gauntlet from her current standpoint.
She, like every other human being, wants to be loved, respected and valued.
And this is the one thing guys that frequently pursue encounters with bar girls can’t face up to: That underneath all the makeup and forced sexual suggestion is a girl who wants to be loved. Yet she acts like a woman who can’t be broken.
I think Bob Dylan put it best when he sung:
“She takes just like a woman, yes, she does
She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does
And she aches just like a woman
But she breaks just like a little girl”
And before someone comes at me with a “you're victimizing women by treating them like children” comment, the above lyrics can be applied to anyone in a vulnerable place in life.
The reason guys hate to be reminded of the human side of a bar girl is because it would take the “She loves it!” shine off of the conquest.
Imagining that one of those girls could be your own sister or daughter brings the conscience into play. It makes guys realize that these girls have feelings and emotions beyond the fantasy of the delirious male ego that believes these girls are more than happy to be commodified for sex.
Becoming a full-time bargirl takes conditioning.
Just look at the face of a new addition to a bar, and then return two months later to see her stripped of all that might have been sacred. I have seen it with my own eyes….
I will never forget one very timid girl, who looked like a rabbit in headlights on arriving at her new place of work. Her “cousin” had invited her to take up a position as a “waitress”.
It took her weeks to be conditioned to “go with a customer”. I know this because the bar boss was an acquaintance of mine for a while.
Three months later my travels took me away from the island, and as my taxi passed the bar on the way to Samui airport, she was swinging on the dance pole, hair extensions, knee high boots and calling out to men walking by. The transformation was quite something, but sad all the same.
The way men generally discuss these girls is as if they were “born to do it”. Again, this is a self-preserving attempt to separate their actions from the cause.
Perhaps some do take to it like a duck to water, but the majority have to be broken in, so to speak, and are helped along by the Mama Sang and other working girls.
The Irony of Similarity Between Bargirl & Customer
Ironically, the average sex-tourist isn’t so far removed from his subject.
He may talk a good conquest to his pals, but secretly he longs to be admired as a man, to be loved, to be held, to be respected and noticed by women; things life may have failed to ever present amicably, or in a way that would be considered “normal” to other guys.
So he chooses to pay, which may be the only avenue he has to getting close to what he really wants from a woman. There's nothing wrong with that, if the transaction is consensual, right?
Yet all too often in this transactional realm, the man falls foul to the strategic lies of a seasoned player.
He gets too involved. The lines get blurred. He forgets it is a financial agreement and not a real romance and ends up losing not just his integrity but a considerable financial investment.
His bitterness at being “played” then results in misogynistic behavior, and the need for revenge through the physical and verbal degradation of Thai women.
Psychological Impact, Alcoholism, Drug Abuse
Can a bar girl have a normal relationship after the bar?
Of course it's possible, and I am sure there are many happy relationships that have lasted the distance between bar girls and westerners.
The amount of foreigners maintaining contact with bargirls and sending money to them once they return home is testament to the fact that in many cases the needy find the needy on common ground.
She admires and he complies, she “takes care of him” and he “takes care” (financially) of her beyond the bar. The success rate, however, comes into question when reading all the negative stories foreigners post online.
On the other hand, it should be considered that sleeping with men twice/thrice their age, and men they generally have no physical attraction to, week in week out, will take its toll on the majority of girls.
No doubt that in some cases there is psychological damage, similar to that experienced by victims of sexual abuse, albeit the bargirl act is consensual and transactional.
Therefore, it isn’t surprising that so many girls experience breakdowns and turn to drugs and alcoholism and end up in refuges. The reality is that post the bar, most struggle to ever have a normal, loving relationship.
The lucky few are able to settle for a retired expat who is prepared to pay the bills in return for regular thrills. True love really isn’t an option for most bargirls, period. But then what is true love, anyway?
When you hit the bars on a Saturday night, I wouldn't blame you for thinking the last paragraph regarding drug and alcohol abuse and refuges is a little far fetched. I would have thought so many years ago.
Until I taught martial arts at a women’s refuge in Bangkok, that is.
I met well over 50 women there who were victims of bars. Those that had broken down psychologically, those who experienced family abandonment when their parents found out (or rather when the friends and other villagers found out what they already knew), and perhaps most disturbingly, those who got pregnant after having been raped by pimps/facilitators, bar owners or customers.
I was shocked by the stories.
When I tell the “It’s a choice” guys about the refuge, they simple can’t believe it, either.
Neither can they believe that many girls are bought and pimped, and in fact can’t leave the bar until the debt is paid in full. Admittedly this is getting rarer, but it still happens in the very poorest of rural areas.
For these girls, the fewer customers you go with the more your rent accumulates on top of the money that was paid for you to secure the job in the first place.
Of course, not every case fits this template, and there are many variations in circumstance. But the point is that the majority of bar migrations aren't fully transparent, and the majority of girls, however they may seem now, would have been largely ignorant to the life that would become them.
In Conclusion
Three thousand words in and I hope you may now understand why I do not glamorize the bar scene on my blog.
My blog isn’t a platform to speak about these girls as toys to be played with and treated with contempt.
My blog is not a corner of the web that will degrade, marginalize, or spread hatred.
A Thai bar girl is a woman, just like your mother, sister, daughter, girlfriend or wife.
The key difference between the dearly loved women in your life and a bar girl is an education and a level playing field of opportunity, which amounts to nothing more than the lottery that is birth.
I want to end by playing you Mae Sai by the group Carabou.
The song is about a girl from the North who goes away to become a prostitute to make money for her parents. She gets hooked on drugs and by the time she returns her mother is dead.
The video has English subs, so don't worry if you don't speak Thai.
Makes you think, huh?
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TheMaker says
What I believe is there are 2 sides of each coin. We need to take precautions at all stages, whether we are in our country or some other.
Of course I would like to say "Hats Off" to the author since he had dared to write something which is not written in any other blogs. Somebody has to write in the direction where no body is looking at.
I would also say that "bibblies" has got point. So it is everybody's perception to look at the things or the cases they might come across.
But I recommend the thoughts of the Author. In my country also, people tell lies, do cheating and gets the money by those means. So why to blame Thai Girls for that, it can happen anywhere. We need to be cautions the way we do in business (see ups and downs) and take decisions.
Just getting too involved and blindly taking any decision (of helping financially) is too risky and hands might get burned. If you really love someone or crazy about any girl, then support her to get out of the bar business and get her settled in some way where she can live with pride and stand on her own feet. Even if she will not earn what she might be earning in bar but she can live with kids & family very happily. If this cannot happen, then I believe there is no point in supporting the girls since they might be utilizing the guys just for their money and not for love or affection.
Every person has dark & bright side and we have to analyze properly before taking such decisions.
Poor education and less financial sources may be the true areas where something really should happen from government side to eliminate. It is cause of concern for many countries where poor education and less job opportunities in government or industrial sectors.
I cannot really comment on which side I am but I liked the post very much by Author and also some of the points by "bibblies". We should be human to think about the girls and their problems and try to solve with other means and not by just giving them money but also right direction to spend and utilize the money. And also by checking if the money is being utilized properly or not.
This is the same case where we pay the taxes to country and we keep check on government that tax money getting utilized for people's benefit and not going in wrong hands for politicians or bureaucrats. Then there would be no problem. So trust your instincts and find out more details and then you can take appropriate action like trusting the girl or not. If you have a long term plan then I don't think there is any problem. Any short term plan might fail resulting problems in both ends.
And of course such blogs will help the other guys a lot.
Feb 17, 2012 at 8:08 pm
Random John says
I guess I'm an overall friendly guy with a normal thirst for beer and conversation, and speaking a bit of broken Thai in some of the tourist spots got me to befriend a few of the girls. Not sure exactly on what level that puts me on the "bargirl scale" but I would like to think it's not at the bottom rung. I remember one story that really struck me.
During a vacation I made friends with one of the girls in a bar, and we stayed in touch after I left that area. She's from Isaan and stays there for most of the off-season, so when I had to make a visa run I was invited to visit her at her village, and for a few days I was living in their house.
She had the most welcoming family, she was living with her parents, siblings, and her teen daughter, and i was living in their house for the duration of my stay. They were not extremely rich of course, but they were pretty well off. My friend have managed to snare a few sponsors that sent her money regularly and it paid for more than what would be necessary for a comfortable life.
I think this is a point that was yet to be made: if it was so universal that the girls suffer in the bars, why are some of those girls that found a sponsor continue to work in the bar? Once they were out of that financial mud, what would make them want to return?
I was there when the guys called, I have listened to her asking for money. I have seen the money transfer papers she filed neatly in a folder. I have seen the pride she had in that pile of papers when she showed them to me.
A few months later I returned to the same tourist spot, and came by to meet her. She told me her daughter is there too, and she would be very happy to meet me too, but when I came to see her that evening I could not meet her daughter. And why is that? With the same pride in her eyes she told me that her daughter already went with some farang.
As I tried to figure out what's going on in her mind, why would she send her own daughter down this path, where it is quite clear they have no stressing need for cash, I realized she was just passing on her "trade". I guess that in her mind what she was doing was a very rewarding career!
Of course that is only one story, but among the mothers who strive to feed their babies (sure have seen lots of them), I have also seen those college students who thought it would be cool to get a new iPhone and "allowance" from handsome foreigners from time to time. Among girls who ran away from their shitty homes and abusive parents and decided they could gain their independence by selling their bodies, I also met girls that were seeking adventure from what they thought to be a mundane life, girls that appear to genuinely have insatiable libidos and figured out that they could turn a few baht as well, and one particular odd girl that told me her father does not allow her to date the local guys so she went to find a farang boyfriend in the worst possible way. I have seen the girls that gave the bar a try and ran away never to return. Although I will never know if what these girls told me was true or just a feel-good story, I have been in enough situations to convince myself they were not all made up.
I can also tell you that from what I have seen, although probably most girls will be destroyed by having this way of life, there are a few of them who are strong enough, and can leverage themselves and use their advantage to get far ahead of where they would have been otherwise. Look at the smart girl in the bar who doesn't throw away her gains on gambling, methamphetamine, or karaoke guys, and you may see her owning that bar sooner than you'd expect.
My point is: You will never be able to see the whole picture by telling the story of one girl you know, because I'm sure you could find another one who will disprove your theory. Not all the guys sitting in those bars are the same, and similarly neither are all of the girls. As everything in life, it is more complicated than what you see on the surface, and there are many surprises everywhere you turn.
Feb 11, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Bill says
Feb 09, 2012 at 11:59 am
bibblies says
Jan 14, 2012 at 11:23 pm
bibblies says
TheThailandLife, you met one bargirl's parents for 4 days. Doubtless the story's true but I've met more, over more time. Of the ones I know, usually the families/parents aren't so hard working. Usually they're 'too old' to work.
Interesting that the girl gave up the house and the car if she was married. Had she signed to complete the marriage legally? Were those the guy's before the marriage (it sounds unlikely). Even if she hadn't signed, I know another girl really well who's been married a few times (always to Thais). She recently broke up with the last guy and had to be convinced by her sister to pursue the 50% of assets. Left to herself she was going to call it fate and let the guy sell it all for himself or keep it. And she hadn't signed.
Very few girls die of cancer at 23. Are you sure the underlying cause wasn't something else?
"What is most concerning is the general lack of compassion by expats and Thais, and the lack of effort on behalf of anyone to educate families on the dangers of letting their daughters fall into this industry.... Who knows, who cares…it was their choice, right?"
Well ultimately you didn't care enough about this girl to make her your GF, support her financially, etc, did you? It would have brought you down socially, financially, compromised your beliefs, your life, whatever. Ultimately while you sat on the sidelines being compassionate, you didn't really support her. Maybe things might have been different if you had?
Jan 18, 2012 at 11:39 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 19, 2012 at 6:38 am
bibblies says
Fair enough that you didn't want to be her boyfriend. What I was pointing out there, in reply to your allegation that there was a "general lack of compassion by expats and Thais, and the lack of effort on behalf of anyone to educate families on the dangers of letting their daughters fall into this industry" was that it takes an extraordinary amount of time, effort, pain, patience and, usually, money to get involved enough with just one of these girls and change her life and you yourself know that. Despite your sympathy, would you ever do it?
There are plenty of nice farang guys with compassion but usually the girl or the girl and combined with the weight of family, will drag the guy down and, often, drag the guy with her. Would you want to spend precious years of your life like that? Or wreck your business trying to give people chance after chance? You have to be a combination of saint, teacher, masochist and idiot.
Read the ThailandGuru entry about 'Good guys trying to help often get burned' and the cases where he tried to give chances to girls and imagine if you could take that, time after time, until a girl changes (and her family changes).
Jan 19, 2012 at 9:58 am
bibblies says
Of course they'll always say they go into the trade for the good of their families or children, of course their families are nice people, of course the customers are bad and of course the Thai former boyfriends or the farangs they broke up with are bad. You need to stay with them and check, not just listen to their stories. Everybody wants to show themselves in the best light but Thais more than most nations because of 'face'. They'll paint themselves in the best light, not just to you but to themselves.
You haven't met bargirls from outside the North or North East and they always have dependents to 'support'? You don't know enough. I know girls from Bangkok, girls who start part-time supposedly to help pay for university or other studies, who are different at first and noticeably more polite than their Isaan cousins but you'll still see them a year, 2 years, 3 years later. By that time they will have a tattoo or two, they may have gone abroad to Singapore or Hong Kong (to 'work'), and their 'studies' will still not have finished.
I suggest the bug is in these girls already and they're somewhat complicit in it.
Your theory of it being due to cultural pressure and poverty falls down when you just look around at similarly poor girls in the same culture who DON'T do this, whose parent's DON'T push them (explicitly or implicitly). They're the majority.
Jan 14, 2012 at 11:18 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jan 15, 2012 at 11:44 pm
bibblies says
You're really only on level 2 if you believe this. I remember when I used to believe this. Don't you know Thais? Think. Yes, you'll get some truth but they won't confront it all, even to themselves. You have to stay with them or know them a long long time for that.
Jan 16, 2012 at 2:20 pm
bibblies says
You don't explain why the majority, in the same situation, don't do it - don't push their kids or don't want the transient material goods or 'face'. Your arguments completely fall down on that point alone.
I know people in the same families or extended families who don't go down the same route and, guess what? They're fine. They have normal lives. Maybe they don't have the very latest phone but that's just like life in the West.
"Take a look at the girls hanging around the Westin hotel near Asoke station in Bangkok for example. these girls look malnourished, dirty, and beaten down. Many are clearly on drugs and more akin to the type of street hookers you get in the back streets of Soho in London. Hell, these girls aren’t even good enough for the bars."
I know some and their back stories.
"Are you telling me there is a future out there for all these girls?" Career options, government support, a job that will pay enough for a decent, clean 1 bed apartment and proper education for their children?"
Yes. As I say, I know girls from the same family as hookers or ex-hookers. It's possible, if their parents don't pressure them or if they resist the pressure and bad choices. Choices, in the end. Just like everywhere really. You're going back to level 1 here. Tell us why poorer countries than Thailand don't have a bigger hooker problem?
"When was the last middle-class, fair skinned thai girl you saw working in a bar? Which suggests what guys? They are poor, lower class people with little privilege and opportunity in comparison to the middle classes and elite"
I know one who works the streets between Nana and Asoke, let alone a bar. Middle class, tall, white, Chinese-Thai, all her siblings are professionals... she's been doing it for years, talks about it as her 'career'. Some people have different attitudes.
You seem to be demonising farangs too much. In my experience, farangs are much kinder to the girls than their countrymen and women.
Jan 16, 2012 at 2:34 pm
Adrian says
Why are you so unwilling to admit that there are girls out there stuck in this trade against their will? Why are you so unwilling to admit that it's a shitty life? Do you think they're happy, deep down, even if they chose the life? You accuse the author of this thread of being fooled by the girls he's interacted with and taking things at face value... you think it's any different when you see a girl who talks about it as her 'career'? You think any girl in this life is going to tell you the honest truth even once you live with her and know her for a long time? It's ALL a game, and the name of the game is play or get played. Whatever a girl can say she will, in order to appear to walk tall, or to gain sympathy. Either way she's playing this game with the truth for a reason - because her life is not a fairy-tale and given a better choice, she'll fight for it.
You are seeming to accuse the author of the blog of only telling one side of the story, and then turning around and presenting your side of the story as if it's the ONLY side of the story! Obviously seeing as you both base your view-points on first-hand evidence, then the truth includes all aspects of both your arguments.
And what is with this ranking for Bar-Girl levels? Like it's a badge of honour? Like you're better then the author because you know so much more and you're at level 999? To me that doesn't make you better, it means you've been walking down a few too many red-lit streets in Bangkok for far too long. Seems like somewhere along the way you lost your compassion.
Finally: Who are you trying to convince of your beliefs that the bar girls choose this life and love farang because they are so much nicer than thai men etc etc? Us, or yourself?
Jan 16, 2012 at 2:51 pm
bibblies says
That one says it all. I'm hard on the parents (usually the mother) exploiting the girls for ends that usually aren't even noble and am scathing of their motives, what they do to their children and the society that lets this happen. The rest is mainly me reacting to TheThailandLife trying to blame poverty and trying to excuse the mothers doing this in some way as victims of society, as if their choices to keep up with the Joneses and piss money away being more important than their daughters' welfare is is excusable or even understandable in any way. Having being in the middle of that many times, I don't excuse it. I think those mothers are scum.
I don't say there weren't girls 'forced' into it, that's a strawman argument. I do blame parental pressure. But I've noticed that the girls have a slight role in enabling this pressure, that some girls can resist it and do. That some grow to like certain things about it, the power and the thrill of having money, etc. That they find it hard to give it up. Maybe if you went through the pain of caring about someone who wouldn't give it up so easily, you might see it.
As for the rest - e.g. "You accuse the author of this thread of being fooled by the girls he’s interacted with and taking things at face value… you think it’s any different when you see a girl who talks about it as her ‘career’? You think any girl in this life is going to tell you the honest truth even once you live with her and know her for a long time?", well it's common sense that a guy who lives with someone and sees their every ACTION every day as well as the words, never mind their family environment and friends, will be able to form a better opinion after many years of that than someone who only speaks to girls in the bars and refuges. So often actions will contradict words. I don't apologise for using common sense here.
Bar girl levels? It's just a mechanism I made up for the layers that you have to wade through (and that I'm still wading through). I'm sure the author, knowing about Thais, would have thought twice when I reminded him that Thais will be telling a story to appear better even to themselves, let alone you. My experiences are first hand, living with a girl every day in a relationship for years, you will learn a lot more. I don't see that the author's are. I think he'll admit that.
Level 2 is an off the cuff thing, saying that there are guys who don't care at all, who never talk or notice the girls, just have sex with them. Other guys who have sex, talk a bit but don't know any Thai. Then guys who learn Thai well and talk to them, don't have sex with them. (I guess that's higher than level 2 there!) But it's still not the same as living with them and SEEING their lives, their ACTIONS as well as the words. I don't think any Thai will tell the truth but seeing much more of their actions and words every single day makes it easier to form a judgement. I think the author has admitted he's never met the parents of a bargirl, for example.
The 'career' girl is a bit different from the usual in her mentality as well. She simply does detach it as a career that makes good money, she isn't damaged by it apart from that. She's quite old for her profession and started late. She's quite similar to me in many ways, actually!
Your final paragraph just seems to be you assuming I'm one of those stereotype old fat bald farang who disparages Thai men. It's all strawman stuff. When you live with bargirls for a long time you get to know their friends' or sisters' boyfriends and they're not bad in most cases.
Jan 17, 2012 at 2:12 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 18, 2012 at 1:04 am
bibblies says
In the cases I've seen, the money is not used to elevate the family's standing or anything that would better a family's life for the future. It is wasted for gambling, or it's used for throwing big parties in the village, it's used for spending on boyfriends. I've sat in a bar with a girl I knew well who was crying because her mother wouldn't talk to her. Her crime? Not sending enough money home. She'd just sent 20,000B a week ago and it was gone. She didn't have a kid. The mother was just partying and treating her own boyfriend and not giving a shit about her own daughter.
Face, having fun, parents not caring, people not condemning others for their behaviour. That's why there's so much prostitution here. That and irresponsible fathers running away.
You go on about the parents being trapped in consumer culture, blah, blah. But at some point, when they're sitting there in their home with air conditioners, flat screen TV, microwave, etc, more comfortable than they'd ever thought they'd be, they have to consider their daughters before the next party or gambling night or pick-up truck upgrade.
Jan 14, 2012 at 12:05 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jan 14, 2012 at 9:25 pm
dv says
Thai society is like a dysfunctional family. Money seems to be God and a corrupt education system that largely does not train the mind to think, but the system is democratic in that it does not limit this mis-education to any single socio-economic class of people. Google "our idiotic mind set" bangkokpost article for a deeper understanding.
There is cheating and corruption at all levels of society and lots of hyprocisy and denial. The perceived bar girl scamming is just another flavor of that same culture. Throughout their society, things occur to make "quick money" that astonish many of us.
I have knowledge from exposure to the entertainment scene and can also speak fairly decently as well as read and write Thai (not as well as a native of course) I also am not here because of my social life and the bar stuff is low importance. I think human trafficking is reprehensible.
Although I have never lived with a bar girl (IMO even a very high % of middle/upper class girls are not interesting either) I've heard most if not all of the stories. I've been (apparently) befriended by successful bar girl types that did not seek money, just someone to talk to and party with. I've seen photos of very nice large houses in Issan and cars, all funded by western guy(s). One girl asked me why despite the house and cars, there is no happiness in her family. I explained the concepts of personal, intellectual, emotional development, and self esteem not based on money for nothing and checks for free. One girl even showed me photos of the homes and cars of 2 wannabe western husbands, asking me which one I thought she should marry. She never spoke about her feelings for them or attraction or happiness with them.
Theres a multitude of western guy enthralled and fascinated with the bar girl culture. Frankly imo theres not much fascination at all anywhere. I do have some great Thai friends though, and yes, they think outside of the box; the exception.
Mar 02, 2012 at 6:41 pm
bibblies says
The whole blog entry, of course, is disingenuous. The author professed himself to be 'bored' by the subject yet not only wrote a large entry but has responded to comments with more copious debate.
I don't see any evidence of the misogynistic or simplistic replies he was assuming he'd get, that 'bar girls are bad', etc. But it's also perfectly obvious that there is some cultural element at foot here, that it's simplistic to blame poverty. Thailand is far from being the poorest nation on Earth. And blaming the 'culture' is not the same as blaming the girl.
Mar 05, 2012 at 4:15 am
bibblies says
You talk about supporting 'ageing' parents but how many do you actually know? When hearing that a girls parents are 'too old to work', have you ever asked how old they actually are? Usually you'll find out that they're in their mid-forties! Have you then gone on to meet any of them, find how lazy and/or reckless they are with money and know of the ways they manipulate a girl's guilt? I have, it's shameful. And the whole culture bangs in the message to 'respect' parents, no matter what. To have the latest phone or a car you don't even need. This is why Thailand is more notorious for prostitution than poorer countries. All of your argument is geared towards poverty but why isn't there more prostitution in places that are as poor or poorer than Thailand (even Isaan)?
Jan 05, 2012 at 9:40 pm
chris says
Do all these girls have a choice? 95% of them do! They can refuse to do it this is Thailand not east Africa! Thai people do have a choice and can find work easily, might not be good money but they won't starve or go without a place to live.
Jan 14, 2012 at 4:04 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 14, 2012 at 5:25 am
chris says
But in all I do like your article and agree with most, i havn't been with a bar girl for years because I understand them when they talk it sounds like one of those skanky b8()tches you see on Jerry Springer. That's the reality of what happens to Thai bar girls they just get dragged down. Put a good apple in with rotten apples and it goes rotten too.
Jan 15, 2012 at 12:40 am
bibblies says
Yes, precisely, Chris. The arguments about poverty and culture fall down when you see most other girls from a similar background, similar circumstances, NOT going into prostitution. There's something different with the girls who go into it without even having the excuse of being a single parent. There's simply something in them that prefers money to feelings and integrity. Their parents or elder sisters are often complicit but, even if they pressurise, it's resistable. There is something in the girls that give in. One thing you didn't mention, Chris, is that the parents also get used to this money and simply leech more, finding more ways to spend it, just like the girls. They're all complicit. They all have choices.
I wonder how many stories LivingInThai really knows. Taking the girls who work without having kids to support, they usually try other work before and simply change because they think the money's not enough, the work's 'too hard'. E.g. I know one or two who worked in MK. And they simply wanted more money, heard from 'friends' and 'family' where they could get it. The work's so 'hard' in MK for them. Yet I see waitresses of the same age in my local MK who have been there for years. Why is the money enough for them, the work not so 'hard'?
Jan 15, 2012 at 5:02 pm
Rob says
"these girls are the daughters and sisters of other human beings, and at one time children with dreams and aspirations."
Now there is a truth, a real truth that nobody can ever deny. No matter what you read, or see, or even do, they will always be human beings and nothing less than that.
I think your article on this Chris is bang-on, very insightful and should be read by more people. Not many have made the connection between non-existent social services and the flourishing of this industry...
Dec 18, 2011 at 10:38 pm
Cris Sarmiento says
Dec 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm
TheThailandLife says
Dec 13, 2011 at 5:34 pm
Bernard says
Dec 05, 2011 at 8:43 am
TheThailandLife says
Dec 05, 2011 at 10:33 pm