You will find a huge amount of misleading information online regarding Sin Sod, and conflicting experiences can be found plastered all over forums and blogs.
So, when a foreigner wants to marry his Thai girlfriend and the inevitable subject of Sin Sod arises, it is no surprise that he becomes confused over what he should be paying and why he is expected to pay it.
Part of the problem is that Thai women often don’t explain the concept of Sin Sod very well, which isn’t at all surprising, considering that for them it’s a standard tradition and an age-old part of Thai culture.
They just get on with it. It's normal. They've seen it a hundred times at weddings since childhood. And like traditions the world over, some people simply participate and follow along without really understanding the history.
I'm married myself, and I've been to a few Thai weddings in my time. But of course, if we want to know the truth about Sin Sod, the best people to ask are Thai people themselves. So for this post, to make sure my understanding is accurate, I enlisted a couple of Thai friends to help me stay on point.
Before I begin, I am not by any means saying that the information in this post is entirely definitive or one hundred percent historically factual.
However, what I can say is that the information is the experience of myself and two Thai people, both educated and well-versed in their own culture.
Contents
What Is Sin Sod?
Sin Sod is paid to the bride's parents. It is a repayment for the investment they have put into raising their daughter, and also for the loss incurred by their daughter not being readily available to support them anymore.
It is also symbolic of the groom's ability to be able to financially take care of the bride.
Sin Sod is a very significant part of the Thai marriage tradition, and something most families take seriously. However, not all families keep the money, and in the modern day it is often returned.
The Three Components of the “Thai Dowry”
To break the meaning down further, there are generally three reasons for the payment of Sin Sod, as follows:
1. Traditionally, the eldest unmarried daughter takes care of her parents until she gets married, and therefore the Sin Sod in some respects replaces that income for the parents. As you might know, it is common for a single Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.
This usually stops once she is married and has her children to care for.
So, as you can imagine, for parents with no pension plan and little savings, the Sin Sod is a much-needed payday.
Richer families, who don't need the money, usually return the money because, quite simply, they don’t need it. For them, Sin Sod is more about showing status.
2. Once a woman has been married, and/or has kids, the structure of Thai society makes it very hard for her to find a man of decent stature. Therefore, the Sin Sod acts as a sort of insurance in the event that the husband leaves and doesn't offer post-separation financial support.
The bottom line is, if a woman finds herself back living with her parents as a single mother, the Sin Sod insures that there will be some money/land in the family to support the family.
Thai society also dictates that the older a Thai woman gets the harder it becomes for her to find a job, let alone a well-paid one. So again, should she find herself alone in the future, at least the family will have some money put by for some inevitably rainy years ahead.
As you can see, marriage is actually somewhat of a risk for a young woman.
3. Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is considered repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table.
The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother's milk”.
What Sin Sod Isn't
Some refer to Sin Sod as a dowry, but to be clear, you are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her.
The Western-centric viewpoint that Sin Sod equates to the purchasing of a Thai bride is completely incorrect.
To fully understand the tradition, I think it pays (pardon the pun) to put the word “dowry” out of your mind, not least because any suggestion to your future in-laws that you are purchasing their daughter will be very offensive.
Who Pays Sin Sod?
Any man marrying a Thai woman is expected to pay Sin Sod.
The amount is usually agreed between the two families. Where a foreigner's parents aren't present, the duty falls on him to ask the family how much they expect.
Who Doesn’t Pay Sin Sod?
In the modern day, many families don’t expect Sin Sod, and many will tell the boyfriend that they don’t want any money. Indeed, many young Thai women are now rejecting the tradition because of its outdated meaning.
However, it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding, albeit that it might be returned.
It should be noted that to expect the money back, or to ask for it back, is unacceptable. One will be offered it back if that is to be the case.
Also note that you may not be required to pay Sin Sod if the woman you are marrying has been married before. See the section below for more details.
How Much Should You Pay for Sin Sod?
Historically this has (generally) depended on six factors, as listed and discussed below:
- Family Name
- Education
- Prior Marital Status
- Dependents
- Employment
- Age
1. Family Name
If your girlfriend is from a well-to-do family, you could be looking at a fair lump sum. However, in this situation the money will most likely be for show and returned to you after the wedding.
2. Education
If your girlfriend is university educated or beyond, then it is likely that you will be looking at a minimum of around 300,000 Baht. This is a low-moderate amount by modern-day Thai standards.
For example, a friend at my girlfriend’s workplace is soon to marry a Thai lady of a high-school level education and he is paying 200,000 Baht. His salary is approximately 30,000 per month.
3. Prior Marital Status
If your girlfriend has been married before then you should pay less. You might argue – on grounds of tradition – that you shouldn’t be paying at all. However, as a respectful gesture, you should offer something.
Remember that marriage is intended to happen once in Thai culture, and therefore importance is emphasized on marrying for the first time.
Unlike second and third marriages in the west, which may be seen as equally as important and “true love” matches, in Thailand they are not that much of a big deal. Celebrity second and third marriages are the exception to this rule.
4. Dependents
If your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less.
This stems from the age-old thinking that the woman is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak.
You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege.
5. Employment
In terms of a woman's employment, it's hierarchical and usually correlates with education and earnings. For example, you'd pay/show more to marry a banker than a cleaner.
6. Age
Age is a contentious and quite horrible issue when it comes to Sin Sod.
I mean, when ex childhood superstar singer Tata Young, at almost 40 years old married Prame, the son of the FairTex boxing brand owner, she commanded 100 million Baht Sin Sod.
But for a 40-year-old woman from a poor rural family and a few kids in tow, it's unlikely that more than 200,000 Baht would be on offer.
That said, the type of guys such a woman would have access to wouldn't be able to afford more than that anyway.
But who knows, occasionally a rich man does fall for a poorer woman in good old classist Thailand, and to show his wealth he would no doubt slap down a hefty sin sod.
Age comes fairly low down on the list, though, and Sin Sod is generally decided by status, family wealth, family name and accomplishment/education of the female in question.
Want to know what I think you should pay? Leave your circumstances in the comments section and I'll give you my estimate!
My Girlfriend Is Asking For Too Much!
Many foreigners find themselves in this position, and it isn’t necessarily that your girlfriend is trying to con you, more so that she is trying to secure higher face for her family, and in some cases to elevate her family's wealth.
Face is everything in Thai society. To marry a foreigner with a Sin Sod of less than 200,000 Baht would be quite a loss of face – not just for her but also for you!
The fact that she is marrying a foreigner will mean tongues start wagging in the village.
So when you say:
“What! No way! I am not paying to marry you”
Or you announce a payment less than what an average Thai guy earning 10-15k a month would pay, you get branded a “Farang kee-nock” (literally translated as bird shit foreigner, but refers to a poor, lower class foreigner), or “Keniiow” (stingy).
The folks in the village will have a good laugh:
“Why is she marrying a foreigner when he can’t afford to pay anymore than one of us folk”?
Yes, unfortunately most Thais believe, as many westerners do, that Thai women only marry foreigners for financial security, unless of course the Thai woman is richer or as wealthy as the foreigner.
Ask Her Parents
Anyway, don't take your girlfriend’s word for it, because the tradition is that you are supposed to ask the mother and father for the amount they want. It is not for the woman to tell the man what she wants. So arrange to meet with the parents and politely ask them what they expect.
They will probably say one of two things:
1. “Oh no, mai pen rai. We don’t want anything”.
2. “It's up to you”.
The first answer doesn’t mean you say, “Okay, great”, and go and buy a new car instead.
By answering in this way they are exercising their “grengjai”. They are being polite.
What they actually mean is:
“Tell us what you WANT to pay, and you will be able to tell by our body language whether we think it’s okay or not”.
So basically you need to make out you really want to pay. As you can see, this all falls in nicely with the non-confrontational Thai style.
The second answer means, “What do you want to pay… but don’t insult me”!
*It should be noted that some families might genuinely want nothing at all.
Will You Get Your Money Back?
Chances are that you might, actually. Though don't expect it.
Interestingly, there was a poll Pantip, the popular Thai website, that surveyed a number of readers, asking whether their families returned the money.
48 out of 75 families said they returned the Money. Ten families returned only some of the money. And 17 families didn’t return any money.
All This Talk of Money Seems So Shallow!
Yes, and for the most part it is.
Sin Sod is largely about face.
“Look at my daughter, she went to university and married a good man with a good job”.
Or even, “Look at my daughter, she didn’t go to university, but she is so beautiful and hardworking that she married a lovely rich foreign guy”.
As a foreigner, you may feel like you are buying your girlfriend and have become a victim of the old “Thailand ATM” syndrome. And depending on the circumstances, that could be the case.
But if you're in a secure, genuine relationship, you need to forget what the misinformed barstool gossips say and consider your girlfriend and the culture. And yes, that's right, she too needs to consider your wallet.
Like it or not, Sin Sod is a big part of Thai culture, and, as soon as a Thai woman announces marriage, the big question on everyone's lips is, “How much Sin Sod“?
Why?
Because Sin Sod is a reflection of her and her family and you and your family.
A Thai woman lives to make her family proud, to show the other villagers that they are a good family, that they are to be respected, and that they are climbing the social scale.
I Feel I'm Compromising My Western Culture
I hear you.
I come from a culture where the woman’s father is supposed to pay all the wedding costs, though it’s more a 50-50 thing in the modern day.
But think about it like this: Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices.
Without you knowing it, she will have been the talk of her village for living with you without being married – this reflects badly on her family.
Don’t forget that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture, you really should understand the culture first.
On an emotional level, you need to consider that just like every Western girl dreams of a white wedding to make her daddy proud, the majority of Thai women grow up dreaming of marrying in their home town and making their parents proud with a respectable Sin Sod, and in turn elevating the family face.
The way I see it is this: An average wedding in the UK costs £20,000. So if you pay £4,000 – £6,000 to marry your Thai girlfriend in a village ceremony that costs no more than £2,000, you still save a whopping £12,000!
That said, in the UK, you get gifts and money from your girlfriend’s family, so that does offset some of the cost.
You also get money in Thailand. Guests put money in a box on their way in. We clocked up about 15,000 Baht if I remember correctly. That was a pleasant surprise.
Truth be told, you aren’t likely to get much in return at any point unless you marry into a wealthy family, but then setting up home here is cheaper, as is taking care of a woman post-marriage.
In Summary
Sin Sod isn't a recent cultural scam made up to dupe foreigners out of their savings; it has been around for donkey's years and is an expected part of every Thai wedding, although not everyone adhere's to the tradition.
Is it outdated? Probably.
Are some Thai brides using the tradition to extort older foreign men and secure a windfall for their family? A few. Where there is money to be made there is always someone seeking to exploit a situation.
In a nutshell, it is important for a foreign national marrying a Thai to understand this tradition, to know its symbolic meaning and what a fair Sin Sod is in a given circumstance.
That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but whether you like it or not, marriage is about compromise – because it involves two people – so do your best to find some middle ground that makes both you and your partner feel comfortable.
Or, just call the whole thing off!
Feel free to pitch in with your experience. It would be really useful to know what married guys paid, or didn’t pay, and how the process was handled.
I would like to say a big thanks to Marisa and Noynar for contributing their cultural knowledge to help me write this post.
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Last Updated on
123 says
She ask i can give BHAT 200,000 anot plus GOLD NECKLACE 45.6G.
Is that must give GOLD NECKLACE according what she say?
And after married she not stay together with me
Feb 26, 2018 at 4:04 am
TheThailandLife says
Feb 26, 2018 at 4:59 pm
Ginga says
I was quite touched to receive over 4000 from them.
My fiancée said that the guests will be expected to give us money at our wedding too, she went to 3 weddings since I have met her and always put 500-1000 baht in an envelope. So I'm not sure I agree that only wealthy families give you money.
Her mother asked for 200k baht sin sod and my fiancée wants to show 1 million at the wedding and give the rest back to me.
She does a great job around the house and I am never hungry. She takes good care of my high sex drive too *g*.
Coming from a poor background though she was a bit of a spendthrift.
We have been fighting quite a lot about money because even though I am rich by Thai standards I am frugal and want her to help me save money here and there and not spend it sheepishly.
After quite a bit of fighting and tears things have improved a lot. I love her very much and I am truly happy that she changes her habits and mentality to suit me better. A wonderful and loving woman.
This article helped me understand her needs and social expectations better. Thank you for writing it up and putting it online :)
Feb 21, 2018 at 8:53 am
TheThailandLife says
Feb 21, 2018 at 6:13 pm
NK says
My gf is a university holder and her family is consider rich in TH and they have a couple of businesses. I asked her then what is the amount that she thinks her family would expect but she refused to tell me.
I am thinking that if a mountain girl is asking for one million. Then for her is 2 to 3 million? Is this way too much? or how much should it be?
Can you please advise.
Thanks.
Feb 17, 2018 at 11:27 am
Andy says
Me and my wife an her mother have had a laugh about sin sort ! How much wil I pay etc . Her family are mainly farmers from Isaan an are not cash rich people , they have land which they farm an get some money to live .
Unfortunately her father past away a few years back , an her mother does a great job on bringing up her 5 kids. The youngest being 14 an in school.
I always help out every month with 8000 baht to help her mum with the basic costs of living .
I’m a working class lad an earn a ok wage. Me an my finace have a small child together and are in the process of sorting visas out for my wife to be , this on its own is very expensive to sort an you need large savings in your bank to show you can support her. Something to think about is your plans for the future . If your loaded an got endless money this is not as issue an what you pay for the sin sort wont be .
I want to respect thai culture , but they have to respect my culture an I the old days the brides family pays towards the wedding , they don’t have anything to give . My mother in law to be , sees I’m a good person that does my best to support where I can . In in respect of this I’m going to offer 100000 baht an buy 1 or 2 baht gold for her . So about £3000. An this will not affect me going forward with the life I need to pay for . I will also be paying The same for the cost of the wedding .
One thing I don’t get / understand with the sin sort is that 2 people are marring , to start a life . Surely they need money to help them pay for the wedding or deposit for a house to give them a good start . Not give all there money away an start out on your back foot . Times have changed a lot an I think you have to use commen sense an explain to her family what you can really afford . If it’s true an ment to be they will understand .
Even after we marry I will still help her mum out with some money from time to time , because she is a great person an never puts herself first always her kids. An I’m proud to become part of the family .
Good luck everyone .
Feb 18, 2018 at 4:07 pm
Foreginer says
Mar 12, 2018 at 8:06 pm
GW says
Apr 02, 2018 at 12:31 am
Alan says
May 11, 2018 at 6:01 am
Ta Bo says
I'm right now dealing with the wedding/sin sod issue too and.... getting lost in all that.
As back ground, fiancé has had a traditional marriage before (I understand) and a kid with a Thai "husband" (no official marriage though). After their seperation she had a 2nd kid with a foreigner (accident, but the kid is here).
We've know each other quite a while now - long story - and I've been helping (financially) with the 2nd kid birth before we actually got together.
Back to the main topic, when talking about wedding I asked about Sin Sod, I asked if the family was expecting any. The answer was more or less a "yes" as my GF transalted her mother's word for "She say up to you".
I explained I don't know anything about Sin Sod and thai wedding so I need her to "guide" me a little... I explained about how we would do if we were both from my home country (share the cost of the wedding itself but nothing more).
Then she came up mentioning the 200k THB 1 her friend was offered a couple of weeks ago (I saw the wedding ceremony and the money... all true).
It's hard for me to go that far. My point being... I take care for everything already, I help her family with their business from time to time (20k here and there to avoid her mother borrowing it from some "shark"), I participate with the cost of her brother's "going to do monk" ceremony in a couple of weeks (50k) AND more importantly, I expect to be asked to keep doing so in the future.
Paying a 200k Sin Sod sounds too much. I could consider that as a "show-off" but would expect (at least part) it to be returned... But as I understand I cannot mention that I would expect it back nor even ask for it. A Sin Sod that covers the cost of the ceremony + 1-2 baht in gold (that 20-40k THB) is thinkable...
I am crazy to think I'm pretty much screwed here?
Feb 01, 2018 at 2:40 pm
RW says
May 19, 2018 at 3:41 am
Andyxxx says
She never went to university, and she is asking for 2,000,000 baht. Am I being taken for a ride?
She is super sweet, cleans the house, washes my clothes, and does her job in bed. However she seems to be on the high end with material requests. Recently I was forced to buy her the new iPhone, and she has hinted about the need to change it every couple of years.
She also organized a trip with her family and a couple of her friends, and I'm
expected to pay for the hotel.
I'm a bit confused because she is super nice, and seems to really love me and look after me. She's always available, but she believes it's my responsibility to be the financial provider.
Thoughts?
Jan 31, 2018 at 10:52 pm
TheThailandLife says
Feb 01, 2018 at 1:02 am
GW says
Apr 02, 2018 at 12:38 am
TheThailandLife says
Apr 03, 2018 at 5:07 pm
Paul H. says
Apr 05, 2018 at 3:12 pm
True says
I'm worried that he is being scammed. They are asking for $50,000 US to marry her. All the research I've done shows this is way too much. I wonder what's going on.
Jan 25, 2018 at 7:40 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 25, 2018 at 10:55 am
GW says
Apr 02, 2018 at 12:47 am
K says
Jan 24, 2018 at 9:35 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 25, 2018 at 10:59 am
Grey says
Jan 16, 2018 at 7:31 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 16, 2018 at 11:07 am
Vince says
I post this comment as an information to others reading this excellent site. I met my thai wife in 2012 and dated her until 2 years ago when we got married.
My education is: "You wake up in the morning and work hard for your money!" I have a really good position and money isn't an issue at all.
When we started talking about Sin Sod, I came to this site to ask for advises. My wife comes from a poor familly, has little education, is a good, honest, hard working, beautifull Young (now 30yo/me 40yo) woman. She had been providing money to her familly for the past 10 years on her own as she had eared herself a proper job in BKK over the years!
I explained her i would consider giving her mum Sin Sod as a one off payement but that she would have to explain her mum to use it carfully (health/retirement) and that that would than be it from my side! If she expected me to provide funds to her mum on a monthly basis I would simply not marry. I made this point very clear because my wife has brothers who are not interested in working and stay home all day. Her sister (34yo) has only now starded providing Financial support for her 2 kids after being dupped by her long terme drug dealer ex-BF. Plus, i knew perfectlly well that her mum wouldn't be able to handle money, as it is the case for many thais.
After collecting all the information i could, from this site included, I agreed to provide her mum with 5000US Sin Sod, which disappeared in her bag during the celebration. So What happened to my hard eared money, which mum should have used wisely you may ask? Well, well , well...mum gave it all the her than BF so he could pay back some of his dept, than BF dumpt mum and guess what happened last month? Mum lets my wife know that she needs money and we get into an argument about it! I stand to my position and remind my wife of her "doing Nothing" brothers!
Last year we went travelling to Thailand and i told my wife to fly one week earlyer so she could meet up with her familly (secetely hoping i could get away with it). When I landed in BKK i was surprised she had stayed in the capital with her sister. She later told me she didn't want to see her mum because she would ask her for money and she didn't want that. One day before we were due back to europe, mum calls my wife all nice and friendly before telling her:"send me money before you go!" My wife replayed she had no as she was not working and the obvious answer was "easy, ask your husband!" Life is as simple as that:)
I dont think all thai are as bad as my familly in low (right?) but be really carefull about which girl you plan to marry and always keep an eye on your money...I married a good girl but her familly is useless and lazy, so the THE falang should provide...right!
We have now a 2 month old boy, I am happy, still read this site and still don't send money to thailand...
Dec 24, 2017 at 12:24 am
Jamie says
Dec 24, 2017 at 9:23 am
William says
Now what is with all this silly talk about what you have to pay. Mmmmmm. In all cultures, families look after each other, expectations in different cultures vary. My western European culture is family comes first, help out when it is needed. I will be marrying a Thai lady, and any payment of any form has never been raised. The only thing ever discussed was that her siblings are all married and she being a daughter was expected to look after the parents, by being physically living close to them. All the siblings would pay her and her parents upkeep. If she never married her brothers would look after her as she had looked after the parents.
In Thailand this is a social structure where families survive and look after each other, much as it was in European society, until we had the creation of welfare. Pensions, sick pay, health care. and all the other bells and whistles.
When i asked her what the family plan was, it was similar to my own culture, everyone would pitch in to look after the parents.
Now with having to give her parents money, well it was explained like this. Thank you for marrying our daughter,
We planned a ceremony, and all that entails. The display of wealth is not even considered. I am joining the family, i will have responsibilities to my friend that then translates to her whole family. It is called Human decency.
So for paying money is a total bogus affair. The families simply discuss how the happy couple will live and the whole wedding ceremony with any money displayed is showing that the couple are making a statement of starting life together with some money.
Nothing more, nothing less.
The whole Thai family support each other, that is the culture, The parents get looked after in old age, same as in any other culture.
This whole moaning from Men crying about they have to give money, no you do not, it is a symbol at the wedding that you both have the means to live as a married couple. Same as any other culture.
Gifts are shared, some cultures give, material gifts, money or live stock. Everyone shares.
Some cultures do it strange.
In Thailand , no one gives money to parents for their daughters.
The deal is you join the family and share its responsibilities.
Don't forget people here, look after the Monks each morning, they don't all do it. But lots do.
So if your getting married, think about the family, your marrying into.
Honour the parents with gifts, its a cultural aspect unique to all countries.
As for being asked to give money, what is the money for.
Remember in Thailand someone not married is expected to step up and be there for the parents.
Which means do not be conned.
Plan your big day, spend what you can afford, same as you would back home.
Remember Thai culture is unique, respect the family.
Give gifts of your choice, if your rich you can be generous, if you are like your average Thai income earner, its a day of celebration with what you can afford.
Rich people spend more with their bigger disposable income, People less off sometimes over spend.
It is your choice,
As for this rubbish about paying back the family for raising the daughter, so you can marry her, bla bla bla.
Remember it is everyone's responsibility to look after those in old age. No welfare system.
Rich people flaunt their money, those without wish they could do the same.
Do not be a fool and part with money you do not need to.
I laugh at all the fools who forget they are getting married and it is their new life. You are providing a life for the daughter, and she will still need in her way look after the parents in their old age.
The difference is if you are buying a woman, well that is a whole new topic.
Are you getting married or are you buying a bride, because you can not get married for love
In the end, give your money away or do it right have a proper wedding and show respect, by doing what you do in your own country.
No such thing in Thailand as buying a woman, unless you are involved in modern Human slave trafficking.
Nov 27, 2017 at 8:48 am