You will find a huge amount of misleading information online regarding Sin Sod, and conflicting experiences can be found plastered all over forums and blogs.
So, when a foreigner wants to marry his Thai girlfriend and the inevitable subject of Sin Sod arises, it is no surprise that he becomes confused over what he should be paying and why he is expected to pay it.
Part of the problem is that Thai women often don’t explain the concept of Sin Sod very well, which isn’t at all surprising, considering that for them it’s a standard tradition and an age-old part of Thai culture.
They just get on with it. It's normal. They've seen it a hundred times at weddings since childhood. And like traditions the world over, some people simply participate and follow along without really understanding the history.
I'm married myself, and I've been to a few Thai weddings in my time. But of course, if we want to know the truth about Sin Sod, the best people to ask are Thai people themselves. So for this post, to make sure my understanding is accurate, I enlisted a couple of Thai friends to help me stay on point.
Before I begin, I am not by any means saying that the information in this post is entirely definitive or one hundred percent historically factual.
However, what I can say is that the information is the experience of myself and two Thai people, both educated and well-versed in their own culture.
Contents
What Is Sin Sod?
Sin Sod is paid to the bride's parents. It is a repayment for the investment they have put into raising their daughter, and also for the loss incurred by their daughter not being readily available to support them anymore.
It is also symbolic of the groom's ability to be able to financially take care of the bride.
Sin Sod is a very significant part of the Thai marriage tradition, and something most families take seriously. However, not all families keep the money, and in the modern day it is often returned.
The Three Components of the “Thai Dowry”
To break the meaning down further, there are generally three reasons for the payment of Sin Sod, as follows:
1. Traditionally, the eldest unmarried daughter takes care of her parents until she gets married, and therefore the Sin Sod in some respects replaces that income for the parents. As you might know, it is common for a single Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.
This usually stops once she is married and has her children to care for.
So, as you can imagine, for parents with no pension plan and little savings, the Sin Sod is a much-needed payday.
Richer families, who don't need the money, usually return the money because, quite simply, they don’t need it. For them, Sin Sod is more about showing status.
2. Once a woman has been married, and/or has kids, the structure of Thai society makes it very hard for her to find a man of decent stature. Therefore, the Sin Sod acts as a sort of insurance in the event that the husband leaves and doesn't offer post-separation financial support.
The bottom line is, if a woman finds herself back living with her parents as a single mother, the Sin Sod insures that there will be some money/land in the family to support the family.
Thai society also dictates that the older a Thai woman gets the harder it becomes for her to find a job, let alone a well-paid one. So again, should she find herself alone in the future, at least the family will have some money put by for some inevitably rainy years ahead.
As you can see, marriage is actually somewhat of a risk for a young woman.
3. Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is considered repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table.
The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother's milk”.
What Sin Sod Isn't
Some refer to Sin Sod as a dowry, but to be clear, you are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her.
The Western-centric viewpoint that Sin Sod equates to the purchasing of a Thai bride is completely incorrect.
To fully understand the tradition, I think it pays (pardon the pun) to put the word “dowry” out of your mind, not least because any suggestion to your future in-laws that you are purchasing their daughter will be very offensive.
Who Pays Sin Sod?
Any man marrying a Thai woman is expected to pay Sin Sod.
The amount is usually agreed between the two families. Where a foreigner's parents aren't present, the duty falls on him to ask the family how much they expect.
Who Doesn’t Pay Sin Sod?
In the modern day, many families don’t expect Sin Sod, and many will tell the boyfriend that they don’t want any money. Indeed, many young Thai women are now rejecting the tradition because of its outdated meaning.
However, it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding, albeit that it might be returned.
It should be noted that to expect the money back, or to ask for it back, is unacceptable. One will be offered it back if that is to be the case.
Also note that you may not be required to pay Sin Sod if the woman you are marrying has been married before. See the section below for more details.
How Much Should You Pay for Sin Sod?
Historically this has (generally) depended on six factors, as listed and discussed below:
- Family Name
- Education
- Prior Marital Status
- Dependents
- Employment
- Age
1. Family Name
If your girlfriend is from a well-to-do family, you could be looking at a fair lump sum. However, in this situation the money will most likely be for show and returned to you after the wedding.
2. Education
If your girlfriend is university educated or beyond, then it is likely that you will be looking at a minimum of around 300,000 Baht. This is a low-moderate amount by modern-day Thai standards.
For example, a friend at my girlfriend’s workplace is soon to marry a Thai lady of a high-school level education and he is paying 200,000 Baht. His salary is approximately 30,000 per month.
3. Prior Marital Status
If your girlfriend has been married before then you should pay less. You might argue – on grounds of tradition – that you shouldn’t be paying at all. However, as a respectful gesture, you should offer something.
Remember that marriage is intended to happen once in Thai culture, and therefore importance is emphasized on marrying for the first time.
Unlike second and third marriages in the west, which may be seen as equally as important and “true love” matches, in Thailand they are not that much of a big deal. Celebrity second and third marriages are the exception to this rule.
4. Dependents
If your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less.
This stems from the age-old thinking that the woman is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak.
You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege.
5. Employment
In terms of a woman's employment, it's hierarchical and usually correlates with education and earnings. For example, you'd pay/show more to marry a banker than a cleaner.
6. Age
Age is a contentious and quite horrible issue when it comes to Sin Sod.
I mean, when ex childhood superstar singer Tata Young, at almost 40 years old married Prame, the son of the FairTex boxing brand owner, she commanded 100 million Baht Sin Sod.
But for a 40-year-old woman from a poor rural family and a few kids in tow, it's unlikely that more than 200,000 Baht would be on offer.
That said, the type of guys such a woman would have access to wouldn't be able to afford more than that anyway.
But who knows, occasionally a rich man does fall for a poorer woman in good old classist Thailand, and to show his wealth he would no doubt slap down a hefty sin sod.
Age comes fairly low down on the list, though, and Sin Sod is generally decided by status, family wealth, family name and accomplishment/education of the female in question.
Want to know what I think you should pay? Leave your circumstances in the comments section and I'll give you my estimate!
My Girlfriend Is Asking For Too Much!
Many foreigners find themselves in this position, and it isn’t necessarily that your girlfriend is trying to con you, more so that she is trying to secure higher face for her family, and in some cases to elevate her family's wealth.
Face is everything in Thai society. To marry a foreigner with a Sin Sod of less than 200,000 Baht would be quite a loss of face – not just for her but also for you!
The fact that she is marrying a foreigner will mean tongues start wagging in the village.
So when you say:
“What! No way! I am not paying to marry you”
Or you announce a payment less than what an average Thai guy earning 10-15k a month would pay, you get branded a “Farang kee-nock” (literally translated as bird shit foreigner, but refers to a poor, lower class foreigner), or “Keniiow” (stingy).
The folks in the village will have a good laugh:
“Why is she marrying a foreigner when he can’t afford to pay anymore than one of us folk”?
Yes, unfortunately most Thais believe, as many westerners do, that Thai women only marry foreigners for financial security, unless of course the Thai woman is richer or as wealthy as the foreigner.
Ask Her Parents
Anyway, don't take your girlfriend’s word for it, because the tradition is that you are supposed to ask the mother and father for the amount they want. It is not for the woman to tell the man what she wants. So arrange to meet with the parents and politely ask them what they expect.
They will probably say one of two things:
1. “Oh no, mai pen rai. We don’t want anything”.
2. “It's up to you”.
The first answer doesn’t mean you say, “Okay, great”, and go and buy a new car instead.
By answering in this way they are exercising their “grengjai”. They are being polite.
What they actually mean is:
“Tell us what you WANT to pay, and you will be able to tell by our body language whether we think it’s okay or not”.
So basically you need to make out you really want to pay. As you can see, this all falls in nicely with the non-confrontational Thai style.
The second answer means, “What do you want to pay… but don’t insult me”!
*It should be noted that some families might genuinely want nothing at all.
Will You Get Your Money Back?
Chances are that you might, actually. Though don't expect it.
Interestingly, there was a poll Pantip, the popular Thai website, that surveyed a number of readers, asking whether their families returned the money.
48 out of 75 families said they returned the Money. Ten families returned only some of the money. And 17 families didn’t return any money.
All This Talk of Money Seems So Shallow!
Yes, and for the most part it is.
Sin Sod is largely about face.
“Look at my daughter, she went to university and married a good man with a good job”.
Or even, “Look at my daughter, she didn’t go to university, but she is so beautiful and hardworking that she married a lovely rich foreign guy”.
As a foreigner, you may feel like you are buying your girlfriend and have become a victim of the old “Thailand ATM” syndrome. And depending on the circumstances, that could be the case.
But if you're in a secure, genuine relationship, you need to forget what the misinformed barstool gossips say and consider your girlfriend and the culture. And yes, that's right, she too needs to consider your wallet.
Like it or not, Sin Sod is a big part of Thai culture, and, as soon as a Thai woman announces marriage, the big question on everyone's lips is, “How much Sin Sod“?
Why?
Because Sin Sod is a reflection of her and her family and you and your family.
A Thai woman lives to make her family proud, to show the other villagers that they are a good family, that they are to be respected, and that they are climbing the social scale.
I Feel I'm Compromising My Western Culture
I hear you.
I come from a culture where the woman’s father is supposed to pay all the wedding costs, though it’s more a 50-50 thing in the modern day.
But think about it like this: Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices.
Without you knowing it, she will have been the talk of her village for living with you without being married – this reflects badly on her family.
Don’t forget that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture, you really should understand the culture first.
On an emotional level, you need to consider that just like every Western girl dreams of a white wedding to make her daddy proud, the majority of Thai women grow up dreaming of marrying in their home town and making their parents proud with a respectable Sin Sod, and in turn elevating the family face.
The way I see it is this: An average wedding in the UK costs £20,000. So if you pay £4,000 – £6,000 to marry your Thai girlfriend in a village ceremony that costs no more than £2,000, you still save a whopping £12,000!
That said, in the UK, you get gifts and money from your girlfriend’s family, so that does offset some of the cost.
You also get money in Thailand. Guests put money in a box on their way in. We clocked up about 15,000 Baht if I remember correctly. That was a pleasant surprise.
Truth be told, you aren’t likely to get much in return at any point unless you marry into a wealthy family, but then setting up home here is cheaper, as is taking care of a woman post-marriage.
In Summary
Sin Sod isn't a recent cultural scam made up to dupe foreigners out of their savings; it has been around for donkey's years and is an expected part of every Thai wedding, although not everyone adhere's to the tradition.
Is it outdated? Probably.
Are some Thai brides using the tradition to extort older foreign men and secure a windfall for their family? A few. Where there is money to be made there is always someone seeking to exploit a situation.
In a nutshell, it is important for a foreign national marrying a Thai to understand this tradition, to know its symbolic meaning and what a fair Sin Sod is in a given circumstance.
That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but whether you like it or not, marriage is about compromise – because it involves two people – so do your best to find some middle ground that makes both you and your partner feel comfortable.
Or, just call the whole thing off!
Feel free to pitch in with your experience. It would be really useful to know what married guys paid, or didn’t pay, and how the process was handled.
I would like to say a big thanks to Marisa and Noynar for contributing their cultural knowledge to help me write this post.
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Adam West says
We didn't even have a marriage ceremony in her village near Chiang Muan which gets visited only infrequently. She did tell me that if her mother had been alive there would have been problems with how we did it. We do help out her sister and have sunk considerable funds into their schemes and they have to repay debt now. It will take them a long time. So apart from that I was never shackled to the concept of sin sod.
Now, I know of quite a few others that really got screwed over and still are even though their wives parents are fairly well off with businesses and farm land and other daughters married to richer fellas. I think a lot of the time their greed goes way beyond the basic concept of sin sod etc. They will ask for more and more and waste more and more as they have no concept or grasp of saving for the future and building wealth other than buying gold. Unless they are of Chinese extraction, then it may well be a different story and a different type of greed. The wives of these foreigners do not grasp the concept that you need to look after yourself if living in a western country and the more money flows out of your bank account the worse off you will be in the future. There is no thought of the future consequence of the actions taken in the past and present which really worry me.
I would not pay any sin sod if for some reason I wanted to marry a Thai woman again let alone one with children. The long term drain on the purse would be too much let alone the sin sod payment. I'm glad my wife understands that living in a western country we need to prepare ourselves for our looming retirement and older years as no one will look after us and I don't expect or want my children to sacrifice their lives and future having to spend their hard earned on us. This concept is still very foreign to older Thais.
Feb 03, 2017 at 11:36 am
TheThailandLife says
Feb 03, 2017 at 4:08 pm
Adam West says
Feb 04, 2017 at 11:54 am
Dekdoi Jairai says
Number 1 - " As you might know, it is common for the average Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.After marriage this usually stops " - this is not exactly like that. The parents supported by their daughter before she marry will be supported with money even after she got married and it is expected that the husband will be the one who open his pocket to do this, as well to do this for other relatives of the bride's family.
Number 2 - "The bottom line is, women don’t walk away with half of everything like they do in some Western countries." - Yes, you are right ! By Thai law, they walk away with 51% of everything in case of divorce.
Good luck to everybody !
Jan 31, 2017 at 12:55 am
wordi says
So I won't be paying this, I figure I'm doing enough by taking on her and her kids - they get financial security from me so I'm not about to harm my ability to provide that financial security by donating a hefty sum to a third party.
What I will do though is provide my wife with a household allowance, and if she wishes, she can send part of that every month to her parents. How much she sends therefore, and the effect that has on our own standard of living will be in her hands.
To avoid any loss of face, I'll propose we don't have a ceremony other than a meal in a nice restaurant.
Any thoughts?
Jan 25, 2017 at 3:19 pm
Adam West says
Feb 03, 2017 at 11:40 am
Frank says
Jan 24, 2017 at 10:10 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 24, 2017 at 4:59 pm
wordi says
Seriously, cut right back on those numbers, at a minimum in the manner Peter has suggested. The fact that they're willing to take that much from you would make me doubtful about joining that family. There are loads of women out there on the sites, don't undervalue yourself.
As you can see in my post, I'm in a similar situation. But I'm playing it cautiously and have a few other woman I'm talking with. Their behaviour therefore can be compared, and by a process of elimination I'll hope fully make the best choice. I have no qualms about doing it this way as it's a huge decision, and hopefully I only have to do it once. They're probably doing the same anyway.
Hope this helps.
Jan 25, 2017 at 4:16 pm
TheThailandLife says
And if you are paying money to her parents each month that will cut into the amount you are able to save personally. Until your wife finds work, you will also be paying for two.
Of course, relationships cost money; the West is no different. Man, if I could get all the money back I've spent on relationships over the years I'd be sitting pretty!
But Thailand is supposed to a cost-effective move, not one than ends up crippling you financially. Sadly though, i hear from a fair few guys each year who have put their savings into a marriage, house, lending money to their partner's family etc, only to be dumped and leave with nothing. Many have retired and don't have the option of going back to work.
I'm not making any judgment on your GF, or anyone else's. There are good and ill-intentioned people in all countries, but just exercise caution to protect your future happiness and finances.
Jan 25, 2017 at 5:23 pm
Claudia says
Jan 16, 2017 at 2:10 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jan 16, 2017 at 10:02 pm
Kris says
Jan 02, 2017 at 11:02 am
robert says
I wonder if the daughter's father has been in play for the last 8 years. The excuse they failed she gives is pretty thin.
Or is this sin sod?
For what I read here sin sod is a gentle and honourable monetary exchange of the giver and receiver's overall loving and supportive intent to each other family's. Sometimes it may also be the repayment to the girls parents for looking after a child while she was working in the rice fields, I get that.
Ours doesn't seem very honourable, it's certainly not gentle.
Dec 22, 2016 at 8:51 pm
TheThailandLife says
I can't really judge the situation as I don't know the situation, but I've had a fair few emails over the years from concerned relatives worried about someone in the family being taken advantage of for money, so it pays (no pun intended) to be vigilant.
Dec 23, 2016 at 4:20 am
robert says
Thailand and these bar-girls are despicable! There is so much harm in the Thai culture, it rips the hearts out of its women, it abandons its men and lets its children beg on the street!.
Those of you reading this that are educated, wealthy by your own virtue, congratulations, now make a stand! Change your country for an overall better life of your citizenship, not just yourself!!
Dec 23, 2016 at 6:10 am
ThaiDuck says
"Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices."
WHAT? I have lived in Thailand for 20 years and had 3 children and one step son go through the Thai education system. Are you really trying to say anything but the smallest percentage of girls are virgins when they marry here? Come on. Its 2016. The M3 kids are having sex.
Dec 18, 2016 at 4:43 pm
TheThailandLife says
Dec 19, 2016 at 1:20 am
ThaiDuck says
Dec 25, 2016 at 10:06 pm
Twk says
From what I read, the point of this article is about sharing his knowledge, experienced & point of views to others that might be useful/helpful.
I think you have to individually consider your case as unique as it is, ask yourself what really happen here with you and your case? Do some own research, don't have to be too negative or too positive about it, put yourself in the middle of the way, take time learning your partner, your factor, be fair to youselve and her/him, calculate all factors and you might get yourselve some suitable answer eventually. It's time wasting discussion chicken & egg, it's all individual and unique as I said. The point is, if you really learn other cultures, you might be surprise how far they can go.
I am half Thai half Chinese, Im married with the love of my life, it's my first marriage at 38 years old And now living with him abroad for so many years. Before that I'm well educated, good carrier, happy single. I consider myself lucky as I was borned in the family that never ask for anything but my happiness. 100% expenses spending for my trip to have vacation with him, study his language which is not English, visa, airplane & etc. are all from my own saving. My parents never ask for anything but our happiness together. No need for wedding party, only small celebration with family & close friends. To be honest & be real, there're not so many people in the third world countries that this lucky, I'm no defensive with those who face bad experiences with Thais as I realize that in some case it is what it is, nothing to correct about.
All I ask is, as the mirror also has 2 faces, be fair to yourself & consider both up & down sides. Please consider yourself & your case as unique as it is, use your head not only your heart (perhaps both at the same time), so that you can realize & evaluate your own situation so that after a period of time, you can make the right decision eventually. If you don't want to be part of her/his family or their culture, please find your suitable partner in your own area that have similar culture, don't waste your time & asset to married others who diffirent than yours without having real information or done some researchers. There're a lot of decent people in those countries that do excist, please don't let your bad experience with the wrong people cloud your judgment of all. There're some foreigner killer that kill in Thailand too but we never call all foreigner "killer" so simple is that. If they aren't good enough, don't date one without any knowledge and came out crying "they rob me" as pity as it is, your own choice = your own fault.
To those who didn't step your feet into it yet, do your own research, take your time, "do not judge the book by its cover" be yourself & be real. To those who already into it, I have nothing to say but "good luck" guys.
Dec 18, 2016 at 4:36 am
TheThailandLife says
Dec 19, 2016 at 1:22 am
Amghaw says
Jan 08, 2017 at 11:41 am
Dianna Compton says
I know it is his choice as an adult if 42yrs of age, but I have a nasty feeling that this is going to end badly off him. He has already distanced himself from longstanding friends in the UK when they voiced their concerns. Now he's alienating his family.
My concern/question is:is this 'normal behaviour' from Thai women or is she just a money grabbing person whose ultimate desire is to live permanently in the UK (she told me that herself).
Any help, tips, advice would be most welcome. If I could stop him leaving the country, I would as this person is not what he thinks she is.
Many thanks
Dec 03, 2016 at 12:42 pm
TheThailandLife says
Dec 03, 2016 at 3:45 pm
Surapa says
This is not normal. These day I heard many cases like that. I still confirmed these information is true and I would say, there has good person and bad person anywhere in the world. It's like a scram. I hope you won't judge all Thais and hope your cousin will find the right girl one day.
Sorry to hear that.
Dec 18, 2016 at 5:06 am
Thai_k says
Dec 25, 2016 at 1:23 am