You will find a huge amount of misleading information online regarding Sin Sod, and conflicting experiences can be found plastered all over forums and blogs.
So, when a foreigner wants to marry his Thai girlfriend and the inevitable subject of Sin Sod arises, it is no surprise that he becomes confused over what he should be paying and why he is expected to pay it.
Part of the problem is that Thai women often don’t explain the concept of Sin Sod very well, which isn’t at all surprising, considering that for them it’s a standard tradition and an age-old part of Thai culture.
They just get on with it. It's normal. They've seen it a hundred times at weddings since childhood. And like traditions the world over, some people simply participate and follow along without really understanding the history.
I'm married myself, and I've been to a few Thai weddings in my time. But of course, if we want to know the truth about Sin Sod, the best people to ask are Thai people themselves. So for this post, to make sure my understanding is accurate, I enlisted a couple of Thai friends to help me stay on point.
Before I begin, I am not by any means saying that the information in this post is entirely definitive or one hundred percent historically factual.
However, what I can say is that the information is the experience of myself and two Thai people, both educated and well-versed in their own culture.
Contents
What Is Sin Sod?
Sin Sod is paid to the bride's parents. It is a repayment for the investment they have put into raising their daughter, and also for the loss incurred by their daughter not being readily available to support them anymore.
It is also symbolic of the groom's ability to be able to financially take care of the bride.
Sin Sod is a very significant part of the Thai marriage tradition, and something most families take seriously. However, not all families keep the money, and in the modern day it is often returned.
The Three Components of the “Thai Dowry”
To break the meaning down further, there are generally three reasons for the payment of Sin Sod, as follows:
1. Traditionally, the eldest unmarried daughter takes care of her parents until she gets married, and therefore the Sin Sod in some respects replaces that income for the parents. As you might know, it is common for a single Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.
This usually stops once she is married and has her children to care for.
So, as you can imagine, for parents with no pension plan and little savings, the Sin Sod is a much-needed payday.
Richer families, who don't need the money, usually return the money because, quite simply, they don’t need it. For them, Sin Sod is more about showing status.
2. Once a woman has been married, and/or has kids, the structure of Thai society makes it very hard for her to find a man of decent stature. Therefore, the Sin Sod acts as a sort of insurance in the event that the husband leaves and doesn't offer post-separation financial support.
The bottom line is, if a woman finds herself back living with her parents as a single mother, the Sin Sod insures that there will be some money/land in the family to support the family.
Thai society also dictates that the older a Thai woman gets the harder it becomes for her to find a job, let alone a well-paid one. So again, should she find herself alone in the future, at least the family will have some money put by for some inevitably rainy years ahead.
As you can see, marriage is actually somewhat of a risk for a young woman.
3. Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is considered repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table.
The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother's milk”.
What Sin Sod Isn't
Some refer to Sin Sod as a dowry, but to be clear, you are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her.
The Western-centric viewpoint that Sin Sod equates to the purchasing of a Thai bride is completely incorrect.
To fully understand the tradition, I think it pays (pardon the pun) to put the word “dowry” out of your mind, not least because any suggestion to your future in-laws that you are purchasing their daughter will be very offensive.
Who Pays Sin Sod?
Any man marrying a Thai woman is expected to pay Sin Sod.
The amount is usually agreed between the two families. Where a foreigner's parents aren't present, the duty falls on him to ask the family how much they expect.
Who Doesn’t Pay Sin Sod?
In the modern day, many families don’t expect Sin Sod, and many will tell the boyfriend that they don’t want any money. Indeed, many young Thai women are now rejecting the tradition because of its outdated meaning.
However, it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding, albeit that it might be returned.
It should be noted that to expect the money back, or to ask for it back, is unacceptable. One will be offered it back if that is to be the case.
Also note that you may not be required to pay Sin Sod if the woman you are marrying has been married before. See the section below for more details.
How Much Should You Pay for Sin Sod?
Historically this has (generally) depended on six factors, as listed and discussed below:
- Family Name
- Education
- Prior Marital Status
- Dependents
- Employment
- Age
1. Family Name
If your girlfriend is from a well-to-do family, you could be looking at a fair lump sum. However, in this situation the money will most likely be for show and returned to you after the wedding.
2. Education
If your girlfriend is university educated or beyond, then it is likely that you will be looking at a minimum of around 300,000 Baht. This is a low-moderate amount by modern-day Thai standards.
For example, a friend at my girlfriend’s workplace is soon to marry a Thai lady of a high-school level education and he is paying 200,000 Baht. His salary is approximately 30,000 per month.
3. Prior Marital Status
If your girlfriend has been married before then you should pay less. You might argue – on grounds of tradition – that you shouldn’t be paying at all. However, as a respectful gesture, you should offer something.
Remember that marriage is intended to happen once in Thai culture, and therefore importance is emphasized on marrying for the first time.
Unlike second and third marriages in the west, which may be seen as equally as important and “true love” matches, in Thailand they are not that much of a big deal. Celebrity second and third marriages are the exception to this rule.
4. Dependents
If your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less.
This stems from the age-old thinking that the woman is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak.
You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege.
5. Employment
In terms of a woman's employment, it's hierarchical and usually correlates with education and earnings. For example, you'd pay/show more to marry a banker than a cleaner.
6. Age
Age is a contentious and quite horrible issue when it comes to Sin Sod.
I mean, when ex childhood superstar singer Tata Young, at almost 40 years old married Prame, the son of the FairTex boxing brand owner, she commanded 100 million Baht Sin Sod.
But for a 40-year-old woman from a poor rural family and a few kids in tow, it's unlikely that more than 200,000 Baht would be on offer.
That said, the type of guys such a woman would have access to wouldn't be able to afford more than that anyway.
But who knows, occasionally a rich man does fall for a poorer woman in good old classist Thailand, and to show his wealth he would no doubt slap down a hefty sin sod.
Age comes fairly low down on the list, though, and Sin Sod is generally decided by status, family wealth, family name and accomplishment/education of the female in question.
Want to know what I think you should pay? Leave your circumstances in the comments section and I'll give you my estimate!
My Girlfriend Is Asking For Too Much!
Many foreigners find themselves in this position, and it isn’t necessarily that your girlfriend is trying to con you, more so that she is trying to secure higher face for her family, and in some cases to elevate her family's wealth.
Face is everything in Thai society. To marry a foreigner with a Sin Sod of less than 200,000 Baht would be quite a loss of face – not just for her but also for you!
The fact that she is marrying a foreigner will mean tongues start wagging in the village.
So when you say:
“What! No way! I am not paying to marry you”
Or you announce a payment less than what an average Thai guy earning 10-15k a month would pay, you get branded a “Farang kee-nock” (literally translated as bird shit foreigner, but refers to a poor, lower class foreigner), or “Keniiow” (stingy).
The folks in the village will have a good laugh:
“Why is she marrying a foreigner when he can’t afford to pay anymore than one of us folk”?
Yes, unfortunately most Thais believe, as many westerners do, that Thai women only marry foreigners for financial security, unless of course the Thai woman is richer or as wealthy as the foreigner.
Ask Her Parents
Anyway, don't take your girlfriend’s word for it, because the tradition is that you are supposed to ask the mother and father for the amount they want. It is not for the woman to tell the man what she wants. So arrange to meet with the parents and politely ask them what they expect.
They will probably say one of two things:
1. “Oh no, mai pen rai. We don’t want anything”.
2. “It's up to you”.
The first answer doesn’t mean you say, “Okay, great”, and go and buy a new car instead.
By answering in this way they are exercising their “grengjai”. They are being polite.
What they actually mean is:
“Tell us what you WANT to pay, and you will be able to tell by our body language whether we think it’s okay or not”.
So basically you need to make out you really want to pay. As you can see, this all falls in nicely with the non-confrontational Thai style.
The second answer means, “What do you want to pay… but don’t insult me”!
*It should be noted that some families might genuinely want nothing at all.
Will You Get Your Money Back?
Chances are that you might, actually. Though don't expect it.
Interestingly, there was a poll Pantip, the popular Thai website, that surveyed a number of readers, asking whether their families returned the money.
48 out of 75 families said they returned the Money. Ten families returned only some of the money. And 17 families didn’t return any money.
All This Talk of Money Seems So Shallow!
Yes, and for the most part it is.
Sin Sod is largely about face.
“Look at my daughter, she went to university and married a good man with a good job”.
Or even, “Look at my daughter, she didn’t go to university, but she is so beautiful and hardworking that she married a lovely rich foreign guy”.
As a foreigner, you may feel like you are buying your girlfriend and have become a victim of the old “Thailand ATM” syndrome. And depending on the circumstances, that could be the case.
But if you're in a secure, genuine relationship, you need to forget what the misinformed barstool gossips say and consider your girlfriend and the culture. And yes, that's right, she too needs to consider your wallet.
Like it or not, Sin Sod is a big part of Thai culture, and, as soon as a Thai woman announces marriage, the big question on everyone's lips is, “How much Sin Sod“?
Why?
Because Sin Sod is a reflection of her and her family and you and your family.
A Thai woman lives to make her family proud, to show the other villagers that they are a good family, that they are to be respected, and that they are climbing the social scale.
I Feel I'm Compromising My Western Culture
I hear you.
I come from a culture where the woman’s father is supposed to pay all the wedding costs, though it’s more a 50-50 thing in the modern day.
But think about it like this: Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices.
Without you knowing it, she will have been the talk of her village for living with you without being married – this reflects badly on her family.
Don’t forget that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture, you really should understand the culture first.
On an emotional level, you need to consider that just like every Western girl dreams of a white wedding to make her daddy proud, the majority of Thai women grow up dreaming of marrying in their home town and making their parents proud with a respectable Sin Sod, and in turn elevating the family face.
The way I see it is this: An average wedding in the UK costs £20,000. So if you pay £4,000 – £6,000 to marry your Thai girlfriend in a village ceremony that costs no more than £2,000, you still save a whopping £12,000!
That said, in the UK, you get gifts and money from your girlfriend’s family, so that does offset some of the cost.
You also get money in Thailand. Guests put money in a box on their way in. We clocked up about 15,000 Baht if I remember correctly. That was a pleasant surprise.
Truth be told, you aren’t likely to get much in return at any point unless you marry into a wealthy family, but then setting up home here is cheaper, as is taking care of a woman post-marriage.
In Summary
Sin Sod isn't a recent cultural scam made up to dupe foreigners out of their savings; it has been around for donkey's years and is an expected part of every Thai wedding, although not everyone adhere's to the tradition.
Is it outdated? Probably.
Are some Thai brides using the tradition to extort older foreign men and secure a windfall for their family? A few. Where there is money to be made there is always someone seeking to exploit a situation.
In a nutshell, it is important for a foreign national marrying a Thai to understand this tradition, to know its symbolic meaning and what a fair Sin Sod is in a given circumstance.
That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but whether you like it or not, marriage is about compromise – because it involves two people – so do your best to find some middle ground that makes both you and your partner feel comfortable.
Or, just call the whole thing off!
Feel free to pitch in with your experience. It would be really useful to know what married guys paid, or didn’t pay, and how the process was handled.
I would like to say a big thanks to Marisa and Noynar for contributing their cultural knowledge to help me write this post.
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Last Updated on
Jason says
Oct 07, 2016 at 12:10 am
Professor says
Many Thai women who venture into the world of marriage to a foreigner are indeed gold diggers or members of a gold digging family. They care little for you as is demonstrated in their need for payment. This is no well kept secret and even the Thais know it well.
The world has 7 billion+ people. Thailand is just a scratch on the surface. It's not as important as some Thais think it is ... or as some of them may lead you to believe it is.
If you are entering a relationship where you have the upper hand financially then it is for you to determine the rules of engagement you are willing to accept. Do you want to go from upper hand to lower hand by transferring your hard earned money due to an unshared belief?
Pride, honour, respect, culture. Nonsense. It comes down to money. If they want your money all the rest doesn't matter.
Are you happy to spend it? If it disturbs you at all and your family to be seems uninterested in your feelings, you've got a problem. If not, then have fun spending!
Be sure of this. Whether you spend it or not. She is free to leave you and not return anything you've given her.
Sin sod is from days gone by when women did not have the prospect to earn a living. Today they do. Very much so. Even the women from hard up families have the freedom to work.
If they feel insulted by your culture to refuse it, it's their problem. Not yours. Please...don't make it your problem. You'll live to regret it.
I assure you that easily enough she will find someone else to replace you if the money is such a big concern. I've seen it first hand several times.
Last month my wife, who is Thai, visited me here in China where I'm working on a project. She flew in at her own expense. Didn't ask me for a single coin. She simply bought a ticket, arranged her visa and came over to see me. I didn't marry her because she's Thai. I married her because she's gold.
I'm not saying this to impress you. I'm saying this to urge you that you should seek such a partner in life - regardless of her culture or nationality. No one should have to tell you this but it seems men are easily conned, often willingly.
Nov 09, 2016 at 12:38 am
Michael says
Feb 20, 2017 at 1:53 am
Professor says
Fortunately, my family does not see me as a bank. They respect me for what I bring to the table. And I respect them for being an honorable family.
If you know a Thai guy who spent 1 million baht a 10 baht of gold for his bride, good for him. It could be that he married into a very wealthy family and the money was returned to him, and likely so. But that's his culture. Not mine.
If a Thai chooses to marry a non-Thai, then the Thai partner needs to be respectful of the other culture all the same.
In case of divorce, there are laws in Thailand that protect her. She gets half of the assets acquired during the marriage, and if she owns any land in her name, and you as a foreigner get 0% of that. You need to eat too. Not just her.
By the way, Thai guys get fleeced too. Don't think the fleecing only happens to foreigners. If a girl (and her family) is a gold digger, it matters not the nationality of the man. It's even better if she can get a Thai guy who pays. More face gained for the gold digging family.
Feb 23, 2017 at 11:26 pm
Dustin Eward says
There are TWO people in a marriage. If only one of them matters, that's the end of it right there.
If your Thai girlfriend and her family give no consideration to YOUR traditions and YOUR values; run. This isn't even about being Thai. Any woman plays this game, she doesn't care about you and she has brought her family in on the scam... If a woman/family demands Sin Sod/Dowry, they have zero respect for you, you are nothing but a pile of money to be extorted. They may be old traditions, but that's exactly what they are. It doesn't carry any real weight anymore, and anyone who brings it up with no respect for a foreigner is only trying to extort you.
Oct 04, 2016 at 3:43 am
professor says
Mine did. No sin sod asked. No requests for money ever from the family.
Some people on here think I'm making up stories. That's because they most likely took a woman out of the bar and have convinced themselves they're noble white knights.
To these men, I say you deserve to lose every single bit of money to the woman you've chosen. Don't come back later complaining how you've been done in.
There is a world outside of Thailand and I suspect many men are choosing to marry Thai women not because they want to but because feel they have few other options, especially when hearing people whine about western women.
I'm certain no amount of money your lovely Thai bride demands will make her love and respect you more if you acquiesce. And if she leaves you for asking her to respect your culture or customs, consider yourself lucky.
In any relationship two people need to bring something of equivalent value to the table. Otherwise you're buying a wife and that's the only way to look at it in my view.
Call me a misogynist if you like. I'd rather be called names and keep my shirt than be a white knight pouring my woes into a pint in a bar after being done in.
Oct 05, 2016 at 1:06 pm
R. Skrinjar says
Thanks
Sep 25, 2016 at 7:13 pm
Ralf says
1) I would agree and disagree on the part you say ladies have already sacrifice by living or sleeping with you before marriage. It really depend. The having fling culture is very widespread. The ladies you mentioned are usually the really traditional ones or those who are really discipline in not getting a fling even though they stay alone in another city.
2)I agree that if we think about the money aspect, marrying Thai is usually much cheaper as in our home country. Though SinSod is not exactly giving a dowry but both basically means money going out. So we are fine with it. And just take it that you are giving merit to Thanks her parents for bringing her up. Point 3 will tell you what I have gather about sinsod in current days.
3) Sinsod is really about face to show their friends and relative. In fact, after marriage to a Singaporean, their parent may have a higher allowance monthly including a nice new house in time to come. So money is not an issue after marriage. Or maybe generally Singaporean will contribute allowance to our parents so its normal.
4) Thai usually lack planning, so if you tell me the money is meant for the lady in the event her husband leave her, I can say its unlikely the money is still there unless the divorce comes months after marriage. But some may use it to open a small business which generate incomes too.
5) The best is to really understand them and their culture. Only then you get to understand a lot more about Thai.
During the course of dating ,you need to know her well. Don't fall into the honey-trap. Thai ladies are known to be really awesome partners but in every country there are always the black sheep and many black sheep turn towards foreigners so Good luck.
Aug 10, 2016 at 10:27 am
Daniel says
Aug 19, 2016 at 7:12 am
Anne says
Sep 23, 2016 at 8:44 pm
Anne says
Sep 23, 2016 at 8:45 pm
TheThailandLife says
Sep 23, 2016 at 9:01 pm
Anne says
Sep 24, 2016 at 5:10 am
Anne says
Sep 24, 2016 at 5:13 am
Pilot says
Dec 26, 2016 at 4:04 am
Anne says
Sep 24, 2016 at 6:27 am
Anne says
Sep 24, 2016 at 7:03 am
Calum Halliday says
Oct 07, 2016 at 2:49 pm
Professor says
The same as the Thais will not disrespect or abandon their families for you - all foreign men who are considering relationships with a Thai woman must look carefully at her family and their character. 15 years living and working in Thailand has taught me this is something you must do. And to walk away when you see the facts are not in your favour no matter how much you may love her. If they pay for nothing, you are an outsider to them and they don't respect you. Plain and simple.
Nov 09, 2016 at 3:18 am
professor says
Oct 05, 2016 at 1:20 pm
Bill Michael says
Oct 06, 2016 at 6:05 am
Calum Halliday says
I've been reading about Thai culture for about 10 months now and due to fly out to Bangkok for my second trip in 4 weeks time to meet my Thai girl friend. All I can stay is read some of the good blogs, be respectful to their culture as it's important to them. I found a good youtube channel that helped me learn some basic Thai and it was easy to understand. If your going in search of a lady, girl friend please keep away from the bar girls. Most of the bar girls are only interested in taking you to ATM cash machine every few days.
I tend to find the girls from the more rural areas are very genuine. My girl friend is a senior nurse and works in a Bangkok hospital but her family lives further north of BKK. The ladies in Chang Mai, Udon Thani region and rural areas of Thailand are better but that's just my opinion.
I met my girl friend online and spent nearly 6 months video chatting with her on Skype & LINE App before actually meeting, don't give them any money initially if they ask. It's different after you meet a few times and get to know her. If I can help with anything of give you any advice just ask and I'll try and answer you.
Oct 07, 2016 at 2:43 pm
Professor says
Just keep your head on your shoulders when in Thailand and only meet women who would be the type of women you would want to be with at home.
Most of those people who will feel insulted by a westerner are out to get something from you and will be insulted when you call them out on it.
There's very little else to be worried about.
Nov 08, 2016 at 11:50 pm
Calum says
Aug 05, 2016 at 5:18 am
Tony says
Sep 27, 2016 at 1:42 am
Calum Halliday says
I'm going back on the 5th November for 8 days and we are going to see her mother. I just can't think that £10,000 is realistic for the Thongmun just for getting engaged. I know fine when it comes to getting married I might have to pay that much for Sinsod but its negotiable also. If your wife to be has been married before, you should not be expected to pay much for the Sinsod as in Thai tems she has already given her seed to another man. You may want to pay an amount just as a gesture top the family. I'm only 45 so have many years to work yet and will bring my future wife back to Scotland with the intention of having a family as she is only 32, she wants to work in Scotland as she is a senior nurse at a hospital in Bangkok.
My girl friends family are very poor from what I believe as her father died many years ago now. They have some land that the grow mangos on and I was thinking of helping them finance building a house on the land. I have a friend who has built a house on family land and now retired out there and the 2 bedroom bungalow cost 20K GBP including air conditioning and all the furnishings.
Sep 28, 2016 at 8:52 pm
Tom says
Jul 29, 2016 at 11:03 am
salsakinghector says
Jul 28, 2016 at 2:11 pm
Professor says
Another important consideration is ... has the notion of Sin Sod been used to extract money from foreigners unaware of the Thai culture surrounding Sin Sod? If the answer is yes, then is it a tradition which can and has been abused. Since we know Sin Sod has been used (as a bare minimum) to extract money from foreigners on several accounts, then when it comes to marriage between a foreigner and a Thai, especially from the stereotypical rural, low income Thai, then extraction of money is the norm. Refusing to participate in this extraction usually ends up in a quick end to the relationship. So much for the Thai culture of LOVE.
I'm sure in some places around the world it's the norm for the bride to lose her virginity to an uncle. Well, let's respect that culture and heck, if you can't respect such a tradition, you should not be marrying this person. Nor they you.
It boggles the mind how many foreigners, particularly westerners, lose their senses when it comes to the fool's gold otherwise known as a Thai woman.
Jul 30, 2016 at 5:42 pm
James says
Jul 18, 2016 at 1:10 am
Greg says
Jul 17, 2016 at 8:45 am
TheThailandLife says
Jul 17, 2016 at 1:54 pm
David says
I understand both sides, and both sides are right. How does a Thai man who makes 40,000 baht afford a sin sod of 500,000 baht? The price for any decent girl. The answer is his family. Because, Thais accept this. But a foreigners family in no way is going to help pay $20,000 or more to the girls family.
That's the foreigners perspective. For the Thai, not paying sin sod is simply unacceptable. It's like getting married and not having a wedding ring. I would say simply "when in Rome".
Jul 12, 2016 at 1:37 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jul 12, 2016 at 3:51 pm
Jeffrey says
Dec 08, 2017 at 1:33 pm