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Sin Sod – What Should You Pay to Marry Your Thai Girlfriend?

You will find a huge amount of misleading information online regarding Sin Sod, and conflicting experiences can be found plastered all over forums and blogs.

So, when a foreigner wants to marry his Thai girlfriend and the inevitable subject of Sin Sod arises, it is no surprise that he becomes confused over what he should be paying and why he is expected to pay it.

Part of the problem is that Thai women often don’t explain the concept of Sin Sod very well, which isn’t at all surprising, considering that for them it’s a standard tradition and an age-old part of Thai culture.

They just get on with it. It's normal. They've seen it a hundred times at weddings since childhood. And like traditions the world over, some people simply participate and follow along without really understanding the history.

I'm married myself, and I've been to a few Thai weddings in my time. But of course, if we want to know the truth about Sin Sod, the best people to ask are Thai people themselves. So for this post, to make sure my understanding is accurate, I enlisted a couple of Thai friends to help me stay on point.

Before I begin, I am not by any means saying that the information in this post is entirely definitive or one hundred percent historically factual.

However, what I can say is that the information is the experience of myself and two Thai people, both educated and well-versed in their own culture.

sin sod thai dowry

Contents

  1. What Is Sin Sod?
  2. What Sin Sod Isn't
  3. Who Pays?
  4. Who Doesn't Pay?
  5. How Much Should You Pay?
  6. My Girlfriend Is Asking For Too Much
  7. Will You Get Your Money Back?
  8. It Seems So Shallow!
  9. Compromising Your Culture
  10. Summary

What Is Sin Sod?

Sin Sod is paid to the bride's parents. It is a repayment for the investment they have put into raising their daughter, and also for the loss incurred by their daughter not being readily available to support them anymore.

It is also symbolic of the groom's ability to be able to financially take care of the bride.

Sin Sod is a very significant part of the Thai marriage tradition, and something most families take seriously. However, not all families keep the money, and in the modern day it is often returned.

The Three Components of the “Thai Dowry”

To break the meaning down further, there are generally three reasons for the payment of Sin Sod, as follows:

1. Traditionally, the eldest unmarried daughter takes care of her parents until she gets married, and therefore the Sin Sod in some respects replaces that income for the parents. As you might know, it is common for a single Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.

This usually stops once she is married and has her children to care for.

So, as you can imagine, for parents with no pension plan and little savings, the Sin Sod is a much-needed payday.

Richer families, who don't need the money, usually return the money because, quite simply, they don’t need it. For them, Sin Sod is more about showing status.

2. Once a woman has been married, and/or has kids, the structure of Thai society makes it very hard for her to find a man of decent stature. Therefore, the Sin Sod acts as a sort of insurance in the event that the husband leaves and doesn't offer post-separation financial support.

The bottom line is, if a woman finds herself back living with her parents as a single mother, the Sin Sod insures that there will be some money/land in the family to support the family.

Thai society also dictates that the older a Thai woman gets the harder it becomes for her to find a job, let alone a well-paid one. So again, should she find herself alone in the future, at least the family will have some money put by for some inevitably rainy years ahead.

As you can see, marriage is actually somewhat of a risk for a young woman.

3. Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is considered repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table.

The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother's milk”.

What Sin Sod Isn't

Some refer to Sin Sod as a dowry, but to be clear, you are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her.

The Western-centric viewpoint that Sin Sod equates to the purchasing of a Thai bride is completely incorrect.

To fully understand the tradition, I think it pays (pardon the pun) to put the word “dowry” out of your mind, not least because any suggestion to your future in-laws that you are purchasing their daughter will be very offensive.

Who Pays Sin Sod?

Any man marrying a Thai woman is expected to pay Sin Sod.

The amount is usually agreed between the two families. Where a foreigner's parents aren't present, the duty falls on him to ask the family how much they expect.

Who Doesn’t Pay Sin Sod?

In the modern day, many families don’t expect Sin Sod, and many will tell the boyfriend that they don’t want any money. Indeed, many young Thai women are now rejecting the tradition because of its outdated meaning.

However, it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding, albeit that it might be returned.

It should be noted that to expect the money back, or to ask for it back, is unacceptable. One will be offered it back if that is to be the case.

Also note that you may not be required to pay Sin Sod if the woman you are marrying has been married before. See the section below for more details.

How Much Should You Pay for Sin Sod?

Historically this has (generally) depended on six factors, as listed and discussed below:

  1. Family Name
  2. Education
  3. Prior Marital Status
  4. Dependents
  5. Employment
  6. Age

1. Family Name

If your girlfriend is from a well-to-do family, you could be looking at a fair lump sum. However, in this situation the money will most likely be for show and returned to you after the wedding.

2. Education

If your girlfriend is university educated or beyond, then it is likely that you will be looking at a minimum of around 300,000 Baht. This is a low-moderate amount by modern-day Thai standards.

For example, a friend at my girlfriend’s workplace is soon to marry a Thai lady of a high-school level education and he is paying 200,000 Baht. His salary is approximately 30,000 per month.

3. Prior Marital Status

If your girlfriend has been married before then you should pay less. You might argue – on grounds of tradition – that you shouldn’t be paying at all. However, as a respectful gesture, you should offer something.

Remember that marriage is intended to happen once in Thai culture, and therefore importance is emphasized on marrying for the first time.

Unlike second and third marriages in the west, which may be seen as equally as important and “true love” matches, in Thailand they are not that much of a big deal. Celebrity second and third marriages are the exception to this rule.

4. Dependents

If your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less.

This stems from the age-old thinking that the woman is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak.

You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege.

5. Employment

In terms of a woman's employment, it's hierarchical and usually correlates with education and earnings. For example, you'd pay/show more to marry a banker than a cleaner.

6. Age

Age is a contentious and quite horrible issue when it comes to Sin Sod.

I mean, when ex childhood superstar singer Tata Young, at almost 40 years old married Prame, the son of the FairTex boxing brand owner, she commanded 100 million Baht Sin Sod.

But for a 40-year-old woman from a poor rural family and a few kids in tow, it's unlikely that more than 200,000 Baht would be on offer.

That said, the type of guys such a woman would have access to wouldn't be able to afford more than that anyway.

But who knows, occasionally a rich man does fall for a poorer woman in good old classist Thailand, and to show his wealth he would no doubt slap down a hefty sin sod.

Age comes fairly low down on the list, though, and Sin Sod is generally decided by status, family wealth, family name and accomplishment/education of the female in question.

Want to know what I think you should pay? Leave your circumstances in the comments section and I'll give you my estimate!

My Girlfriend Is Asking For Too Much!

Many foreigners find themselves in this position, and it isn’t necessarily that your girlfriend is trying to con you, more so that she is trying to secure higher face for her family, and in some cases to elevate her family's wealth.

Face is everything in Thai society. To marry a foreigner with a Sin Sod of less than 200,000 Baht would be quite a loss of face – not just for her but also for you!

The fact that she is marrying a foreigner will mean tongues start wagging in the village.

So when you say:

“What! No way! I am not paying to marry you”

Or you announce a payment less than what an average Thai guy earning 10-15k a month would pay, you get branded a “Farang kee-nock” (literally translated as bird shit foreigner, but refers to a poor, lower class foreigner), or “Keniiow” (stingy).

The folks in the village will have a good laugh:

“Why is she marrying a foreigner when he can’t afford to pay anymore than one of us folk”?

Yes, unfortunately most Thais believe, as many westerners do, that Thai women only marry foreigners for financial security, unless of course the Thai woman is richer or as wealthy as the foreigner.

Ask Her Parents

Anyway, don't take your girlfriend’s word for it, because the tradition is that you are supposed to ask the mother and father for the amount they want. It is not for the woman to tell the man what she wants. So arrange to meet with the parents and politely ask them what they expect.

They will probably say one of two things:

1. “Oh no, mai pen rai. We don’t want anything”.

2. “It's up to you”.

The first answer doesn’t mean you say, “Okay, great”, and go and buy a new car instead.

By answering in this way they are exercising their “grengjai”. They are being polite.

What they actually mean is:

“Tell us what you WANT to pay, and you will be able to tell by our body language whether we think it’s okay or not”.

So basically you need to make out you really want to pay. As you can see, this all falls in nicely with the non-confrontational Thai style.

The second answer means, “What do you want to pay… but don’t insult me”!

*It should be noted that some families might genuinely want nothing at all.

Will You Get Your Money Back?

Chances are that you might, actually. Though don't expect it.

Interestingly, there was a poll Pantip, the popular Thai website, that surveyed a number of readers, asking whether their families returned the money.

48 out of 75 families said they returned the Money. Ten families returned only some of the money. And 17 families didn’t return any money.

All This Talk of Money Seems So Shallow!

Yes, and for the most part it is.

Sin Sod is largely about face.

“Look at my daughter, she went to university and married a good man with a good job”.

Or even, “Look at my daughter, she didn’t go to university, but she is so beautiful and hardworking that she married a lovely rich foreign guy”.

As a foreigner, you may feel like you are buying your girlfriend and have become a victim of the old “Thailand ATM” syndrome. And depending on the circumstances, that could be the case.

But if you're in a secure, genuine relationship, you need to forget what the misinformed barstool gossips say and consider your girlfriend and the culture. And yes, that's right, she too needs to consider your wallet.

Like it or not, Sin Sod is a big part of Thai culture, and, as soon as a Thai woman announces marriage, the big question on everyone's lips is, “How much Sin Sod“?

Why?

Because Sin Sod is a reflection of her and her family and you and your family.

A Thai woman lives to make her family proud, to show the other villagers that they are a good family, that they are to be respected, and that they are climbing the social scale.

I Feel I'm Compromising My Western Culture

I hear you.

I come from a culture where the woman’s father is supposed to pay all the wedding costs, though it’s more a 50-50 thing in the modern day.

But think about it like this: Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices.

Without you knowing it, she will have been the talk of her village for living with you without being married – this reflects badly on her family.

Don’t forget that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture, you really should understand the culture first.

On an emotional level, you need to consider that just like every Western girl dreams of a white wedding to make her daddy proud, the majority of Thai women grow up dreaming of marrying in their home town and making their parents proud with a respectable Sin Sod, and in turn elevating the family face.

The way I see it is this: An average wedding in the UK costs £20,000. So if you pay £4,000 – £6,000 to marry your Thai girlfriend in a village ceremony that costs no more than £2,000, you still save a whopping £12,000!

That said, in the UK, you get gifts and money from your girlfriend’s family, so that does offset some of the cost.

You also get money in Thailand. Guests put money in a box on their way in. We clocked up about 15,000 Baht if I remember correctly. That was a pleasant surprise.

Truth be told, you aren’t likely to get much in return at any point unless you marry into a wealthy family, but then setting up home here is cheaper, as is taking care of a woman post-marriage.

In Summary

Sin Sod isn't a recent cultural scam made up to dupe foreigners out of their savings; it has been around for donkey's years and is an expected part of every Thai wedding, although not everyone adhere's to the tradition.

Is it outdated? Probably.

Are some Thai brides using the tradition to extort older foreign men and secure a windfall for their family? A few. Where there is money to be made there is always someone seeking to exploit a situation.

In a nutshell, it is important for a foreign national marrying a Thai to understand this tradition, to know its symbolic meaning and what a fair Sin Sod is in a given circumstance.

That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but whether you like it or not, marriage is about compromise – because it involves two people – so do your best to find some middle ground that makes both you and your partner feel comfortable.

Or, just call the whole thing off!

Feel free to pitch in with your experience. It would be really useful to know what married guys paid, or didn’t pay, and how the process was handled.

I would like to say a big thanks to Marisa and Noynar for contributing their cultural knowledge to help me write this post.

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  1. David says

    My 35 year old son is planning to marry a 35 year old Thai woman that he met on his vacation. He met her at a massage parlor and paid for her to stay at his hotel overnight. She comes from a poor village, was previously married and has a ten year old daughter that she does not see. The daughter is with her Thai father in another part of Thailand since she was an infant. My son has agreed to pay a Sin Sod of $3,800cad, and is planning a Thai wedding and hopes to bring her to Canada. Unfortunately, my son has lost his job, but he expects that I should contribute most of the money for the Sin Sod and the wedding. I have read the articles and know that a Sin Sod is not required under these circumstances. How do I knock some sense into him? Very Frustrated
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hmmm, this is a difficult and understandably sensitive situation. The reality here is that in her situation, she would find it very difficult to find a decent Thai man to marry. Her profession, age, level of education, class (on the social scale) and the fact that she has been married before all count against here, so to speak. I writing strictly from the Thai societal hierarchical point of view here and mean no disrespect to her as a human being. She may be a kind, compassionate, lovely person for all I know. While technically speaking a sin sod isn't wholly applicable, it is up to individuals in these situations if one is present. In my experience, most second marriages do involve some sin sod, though usually not a large one. But again, this is dependent on the wealth of the families involved.The social level of Thai man she would have access to would most likely be very poor and unable to pay a sin sod of more than 20-70k. Usually, in poor circles and in such circumstances, the sin sod is somewhere in that range. The amount your son speaks of isn't that much more (a little over 100k).It isn't the sin sod that would concern me here though. How much does your son know about this woman? I get so many emails from men who have jumped in quickly and been taken for a ride. Surely without a job he should consider waiting until his financial position is better and he doesn't have to borrow from you? With her history, he may find it hard to get a visa to bring her to Canada, especially if he doesn't have an income. He should also consider that she probably has it in mind that he will be assuming financial responsibility for her family. For her this will be a given, because she will be giving up work to be with him.With all due respect to her, there are a million or more single 30 something, reasonably well-educated Thai women working everyday jobs, able to support themselves financially, and looking for a genuine relationship that isn't transactional. Would it not make sense to wait a while, meet some more women and reconsider his position? Though I understand that he may be in love with this woman and has sees beyond the superficial aspects of her past and status. I respect that, but I've seen one too many of these situations turn out very badly. The problem is that going forward he will have to carry all the financial responsibility, for her mother and father and possibly her daughter. And then there's the visa process, getting her settled in a new country -- what if she doesn't get on well there? People can be hostile to foreigners, and nasty with regards to stereotypes about Asian women. Acclimatizing to a new culture will be a huge, tough learning curve for her. It's a massive step to marry a woman from a completely different culture, let alone one who will become completely financially dependent on you.Hope this helps in some way. All the best.
      Reply

    • Professor says

      Don't let him do it. Trust me. Sin Sod are the least of your troubles with this type of woman. Sorry to sound stereotypical, but she is not what she appears to be. She works a job where she "satisfies" customers by the hour (or two), and gets paid accordingly. Her definition of "love" is drawn from her need to elevate her family status through the foreigner (your son) and she will equate his love with his ability and willingness to pay.

      I know of what I speak, and I can almost guarantee you it is a recipe for financial and emotional disaster.
      Reply

    • Adam West says

      Wholly cow, the description is classic and so will be the years of problems ahead if he goes through with it. Some of my wife's friends or acquaintances are women such as described and they are a nightmare for their husbands. Some are even real 'sluts', may sound inappropriate and harsh but a truth. Some of these ladies usually have several guys on the go attached to the milking machine.
      Reply

  2. manga1977 says

    I have a Thai girlfriend but I only make 30K a year. She said her sister went for 8,000,000 Baht but that her parents will accept 5,000,000 Baht. I do not have a lot of money so how to I go about discussing this. I have mentioned I only make around 16.00 and hour to her already. i could afford 100,000 -200,000 Baht. A friend of mine told me to wait till after she accepts my proposal. What do you think?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I think she'd have to be from a well respected, rich family, been educated first at private school in Thailand, then abroad at University in the US, Australia or UK to be looking at that kind of Sin Sod. Without wanting to be rude, a woman with a status in Thailand who commands that kind of Sin Sod would no doubt already be wealthy and marrying someone of greater wealth than herself.
      Reply

      • manga1977 says

        I told her I would only pay 200,00 Baht for the sin sod. If here family is looking to cash in on me it won't happen. Thanks for the comment. She has university degree in Thailand but is only getting a 2 year certificate here so the sin sod should be less. She is 32 years old. Did I make the right decision to tell them that this was all I could afford?
        Reply

  3. Professor says

    Sin Sod – What You Should Pay to Marry Your Thai Girlfriend...

    Answer = nothing

    You will in almost all situations where a foreigner is marrying a Thai, be upgrading her life. Forget about her status (unless you're that shallow that you care about such meaningless crap).

    Prostitutes are for short term sexual relief and entertainment. Your existence as a man, especially if you're a western man, is far more significant than discarding it for a definitely meaningless belief as far as you are concerned. More importantly, the hookers should be thanking you as few Thais would bring such a person home with a marriage proposal on offer.

    Of course the hooker may see you as a replacement of her freelance income but rest assured in most cases you will fail in your attempts to bring her out of that life, especially if she is under 35. Even past 35, it will be a major task since her views have long been shaped by the notion that she is entitled to your money by then.

    I believe there are more Thai women who are not interested in your money and are more than happy to chip in. Not that I needed it, but I made sure my wife chips in the expenses. She pays a third of the monthly bill not because I'm in need of her money but because if she loves me she better prove it by chipping in. Otherwise, out the door.

    Guys - you are the asset. Stop acting like pussies cow towing to these desperadoes who see you as their meal ticket. They know their worth in Thai society which is why they look at you, the foreigner, as their last attempt to redeem their status. Yet, they will fail in most cases because poverty is a mindset. Do you want to go down with their poverty driven ways?
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      So essentially your advice is: Move to Thailand – a country with its own deep-rooted traditions and culture – meet a woman that you like, get into a relationship, then, when you want to get married, tell her and her family to shove their country's tradition where the sun doesn't shine because as a foreigner you are an asset and they should be lucky that you even graced their country by stepping foot in it in the first place? Doesn't really sound like the type of relationship I'd want to be in, and I doubt the woman in question would want to be in either.Why do you associate sin sod with hookers? Thai weddings across all classes still adhere to this tradition. And why do you call it a "meaningless belief". It's an integral part of the Thai wedding culture and has been for centuries. It reflects the hierarchical society, thus the amount shown has historically reflected family name, wealth, education, etc. I don't necessarily agree with it, but if you're going to marry a Thai woman, or live in Thailand, it is essential that you understand what it represents -- and it certainly isn't just a made up tradition to rip off foreigners!Maybe it's just better to marry a woman from your own country instead of getting angry about sin sod...
      Reply

      • vex says

        Totally agree mate, there is far to much disrespect of native peoples cultures around the world.
        If you have no interest in respecting and following there laws/culture then just leave them alone they did just fine before you went there.
        I personally would not want a partner who walks away from her heritage and family for financial gain.
        Such a small price to pay (money) for the best reward in life ( a loyal, loving partner).
        Reply

        • Professor says

          No they did not do just fine before you showed up. They practiced outright slavery and themselves would never touch the women foreigners typically find themselves marrying.

          I come from Canada, I would like to see how many of these people you feel I disrespect would sacrifice their culture to live and respect my culture?

          Culture is myth. It differs not only from one country to another, from one family to another. You'll never get one straight answer about anything related to culture. So there's nothing to hold on to and nothing to give up (except your money if you're a fool, in which case, serves you right).

          And no, I am not white. I am of Asian origin.
          Reply

      • Professor says

        So essentially, you are saying, a Thai woman who wants to marry a foreigner should completely ignore his culture, in fact, not even bother to learn it. Traditions change. It wasn't long ago that a Thai woman marrying a foreigner was viewed TRADITIONALLY as a whore/bar girl.Sin Sod is an outdated practice. You upholding it is akin to upholding stoning women to death for accusing a man of raping her in some Asian cultures. I'm sure you feel selling children to factories is a meaningless, if not, horrible practice that needs to stop. I don't know why white knights like you seem to shave off your balls thinking it's OK for Thai families to uphold a culture that puts much pressure on the WOMEN to show the man they love, Thai or otherwise, needs to present cash on the table. You can call it what you like, it's a dowry. Especially in the majority of cases where a Thai woman is entering a relationship with a foreign man.It's outdated. It's irrelevant to me as a Thai woman interested in marrying a foreigner for valid, genuine reasons, should not demand or expect her culture to pervade. It's that simple.No, Sin Sod is not just for hookers. But the many men asking the question as relates to Sin Sod are dealing with hookers or ex-hookers. If they were not, they would know from the families of these wives that they have no intention whatsoever to keep the money.Being white skinned is very much a thing in Thai culture. The whiter you are, the more beautiful you are considered. Let's uphold that culture too. You do realize how nonsensical your argument is. Once any person decides to marry another from a different culture, the individual's culture becomes irrelevant.By the way, I have been married to a Thai for 10 years. She has been faithful to me all these years, and chips in with the expenses. I neither discussed Sin Sod with her parents, nor did they keep any of my money. Nor do they ever ask.Let it be clear that anyone in a relationship with a Thai who asks for cash handouts or payments or purchases beyond their means is being played by a plain hooker.Perhaps, you have a tendency to write on topics that you have not fully studied, and commenting to people whose experiences you know nothing about.
        Reply

        • Professor says

          TTL: I also read your sympathy piece on prostitutes and bar girls, and while yes, most women do not aspire to enter these careers, many, do it out of CHOICE. They can STOP when they meet a decent foreign man yet many CHOOSE to continue working the game.

          Perhaps they are guilted into it by their families. I am sure, if your family guilted you into entering prostitution, you would make the importance decision based on what YOU think is right to do, not what you parents demand of you.

          But white knights shall never learn. No matter how much you help a hooker, she is that. There are many many women in Thailand who come from impoverished families who do not choose to enter the field.

          As my (Thai) wife always reminds me, the hookers are lazy, they CHOOSE to be hookers because it's fun and easy work (as far they are concerned). Perhaps, here and there, a woman enters and does not enjoy this work. So she tries to leave and find more acceptable work in society, only to discover those jobs require effort for pay. They then return to the sex scene. It's just too easy, especially when one is young.

          You've only painted it as a horrific ordeal for these women. I can tell you as a matter of FACT and EXPERIENCE that many women have chosen this path despite having a foreign man 'take care' of financial needs, and UPGRADE their lives in many ways.

          But to stay on topic of Sin Sod (dowry). Like rampant prostitution, it is a deeply entrenched part of Thai culture, much as honour killing is a part of other cultures. But you go on upholding the importance of it for your own peace of mind.
          Reply

        • Mik says

          Please don't call yourself 'Professor', it's kinda degrading for other Professors out there for someone like you to assume the name 'Professor'.

          If you're really a Professor, then you should be fired from your job. I pity you.

          People have different cultures, some follow it, some doesn't follow it, it depends on the family and the person itself. The same goes to your 'Wife', if you really do have a 'Wife'.

          That's their belief. So, Who the Hell are you to degrade those Thai women and their families who follow generations of traditions that their family follows?

          Don't go blasting other people's culture just because you don't like it.

          Three words that describe you?

          Bigoted, Misogynist, Pig.
          Reply

          • Professor says

            Yes, of course. You know much. I know plenty of Thais who don't like Thai culture.

            As for the name calling, very mature of you.

            I call myself what I want, and I say whatever I want. It's MY CULTURE.

            And yes, I do have a wife, been together 10 years to this date. No dowries, no monks, no requests for payments or financial assistance. And never came to a forum or blog to ask ...

            No, I am not a bigoted, misogynist pig.

            My Thai wife loves me, respects my views, understands that if something is not right for one person in a relationship, then it's not for the relationship.

            If something is not right in my own culture, I call it what it is.

            It's called being honest with yourself and with your partner.

            If you choose to be a beta male sheep dog (well known for name calling), you have my blessing.
            Reply

          • Professor says

            Go observe a female genital mutilation ritual in Africa and say nothing, for you should not disrespect the culture. Go observe some honour killings in South Asia, and respect the culture while you are at it.

            Just because something has been happening for a long time, doesn't make it right.

            Like slavery. Get it?
            Reply

            • Qualified Professor says

              @Mik: Just for you, this is why you are not qualified to determine whether I should keep my job. Do you even speak Thai? If you marry a Thai woman and produce a daughter, are you going to uphold this long tradition of Sin Sod and demand a payment for her hand?For the rest of the men here...Read and LEARN. And pay attention. Your culture is not inferior to that of the Thai. Few if any of the women whose families demand or expect Sin Sod of the foreigner are interested in your culture. So what's all this fuss about respecting her culture?Besides, MANY foreigners marry without paying Sin Sod. OK. They may "show" it at a ceremony. But make no mistake that it is not required of you, and any woman who makes it a condition of your relationship is less than half as worthy as owning a pet.YES, call me a misogynist and a bigot. Last I checked, it's 2016 and Thai women are working jobs that pay as much if not more than their male counterparts. Last I checked, most of the jobs in Thailand are reserved for Thais, and not foreigners. And you don't see many Thais in arms protesting about this.We are all left to choose our own paths, no one is putting a gun to your head. If your existence is merely about making women/people happy at your own expense, that's your choice.
              Reply

              • Mik says

                Damn, you're really a Professor? From which university? So that I can screenshot your comments and hand it to the administration (that way, you really will get fired). But I guess you're too much of a pussy for that.

                Someone calling himself a Qualified Professor and handing out stupid, bigoted comments (also defending it in a paranoid manner) is just too cringy. And yes, you're a Bigoted, Misogynist Pig.

                You do know that you contradicted yourself in your comments?

                One moment, you said 'No, I'm not a Bigot and Misogynist', then in the next comment, you said 'Yes, call me a Misogynist Bigot since it's 2016' shit? Make up your damn mind. But yeah, that's kinda funny with you being all defensive and shit. :)

                Were you really affected by that comment to give out 3 replies? LOL!!

                I'd rather be a 'beta' male than a bigass bigoted jerk who can't take the time to know and understand the culture of others. Blasting sin sod just because you don't like it is a pretty douche move. Comparing Sin Sod to killings and slavery is also pretty idiotic.

                Not all sin sod are scams. It's a tradition.

                Take your own advice, do it yourself. Read and Learn. Who the hell said any culture being inferior to other cultures? I pity your (imaginary) thai wife.

                And please, if you're gonna reply to this comment, 1 reply will suffice. It's funny how you get so paranoid.
                Reply

                • Very qualified professor says

                  Here's one reply for you. My wife thinks it's 2016 and for 10 years that she's been with me, she thinks too many foreigners think they know Thai women and it should serve them right if they lose their money and their hearts because they think that I'm a misogynist. She's happy to pay her own way. It's 2016.

                  Let's not keep harping on my qualifications. First you show me you can live with a Thai woman for 10+ years harmoniously without spending all your money to keep her there. Then you can screenshot all you like ok?
                  Reply

                • Qualified Professor says

                  Mik - you keep saying my wife is imaginary. Clearly you believe that because I say I didn't pay any Sin Sod. In other words, you believe all Thai women and families are the same, and you need to pay/show them money to be with you.

                  So the last person I will be taking advice from about learning or reading is you. I'm fluent in Thai, I've lived around the world. I am fully aware of different cultures and respecting them.

                  That does not mean YOUR or MY culture is inferior to theirs.

                  You seem to think that respecting whatever a Thai woman or her family tells you makes you some kind of liberal non-misogynist?

                  I've been with my VERY REAL wife for more than 10 years. I don't know about you, but my wife does not and has never expected payment of any kind to stay with me.

                  She pays her own way, she contributes to the house and the bills. There's nothing imaginary about this, I assure you.

                  And there is nothing imaginary - nor unqualified about me.

                  Comparing a cultural requirement is not silly. If someone wants to take your money and tells you it's culture, you should be wise enough to recognize it.

                  If it's ceremonial, and will be returned, AS IS CUSTOM, then no issues.
                  Reply

      • Ardesal says

        That's what I did said I love u and ill suport u not ur family We've been together 15 years and have the only sucess full marriage out of her group of Thai friends in the UK as we both know where we stand. She works and built her house in Thailand with her own money. I do buy her younger siblings birthday gifts like laptops and mobiles but that because I like them not because they expect it. I have a very good university educated Thai lady friend family who own a rubber plantation in surit thanni.She married a Yank.He wasn't asked for and does not give a penny they have another very sucessful relationship. If they ask u for money unless ur th same age as her as attractive as her run a mile..........pretty young Thai girls don't fall in love with old Farangs.
        Reply

  4. Stanley says

    Hi there,

    Just wondering about engagement rings, is it normal for the man to buy an engagement ring for himself as well as the woman? Or is the engagement ring only to be worn by the woman and the man only wears a wedding band come the wedding. Thanks in advance!
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Historically rings are not part of the ceremony; this is a western influence. However, many Thai women now opt for a ring. It isn't as common in the rural areas as it is in Bangkok though, and generally poorer couples don't bother. A man certainly wouldn't have an engagement ring. Wedding rings are also a personal choice.
      Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I don't think there is a rule for this, but rather this would be a suggestion. So, "Let's agree to show x, then x is returned to me after the wedding, and you can keep x". Just tell your GF what you can afford to offer. If her family want to show more, which is often the case, you can choose to agree on the condition the amount above what you can afford to give is returned to you.
      Reply

  6. Jamluv says

    It's amazing how old this blog is, yet retains relevance half a decade later. Yes, it took me many hours to read all posts and I'm gonna throw in my two bahts worth. What I, a 40 year old African man simply cannot understand is: Why on earth would any man find a seasoned prostitute to make a for wife material? It doesn't even matter to me whether the girl is Thai or American. You can't turn a whore into a housewife. You almost deserve to be scammed, in fact, begging for it.

    Sin sot is honestly speaking not a uniquely Thai concept. If I was to marry traditionally, I would be expected to send my uncles to her uncles to discuss lobola (a sort of fee to show that I am willing to commit to her and the fee is normally not so high that I must be in debt for years on end yet still not so low that I will be keen to take a second wife). Unfortunately, in modern days and a westernized society, this time honoured African tradition has backfired: fewer and fewer men marry. It is seen as an impractical absurd and expensive exercise which honestly is not really helping the man with anything. After all, many couples cohabit, have children and eventually marry at the court.
    The "face" element of a huge sin sod gained by a bar girl only tells me she must have piles of filth if it requires that much sin sod face wash. You'd probably do better finding a girl away from bars and live a happy scam free life.

    Personally, I wouldn't kiss a prostitute on her lips, never mind dating one! I'm open minded and have no race issues so whomever I decide to marry, would certainly not be a girl I met selling her body and surely wouldn't be after two week exotic holiday. That's just how I feel, feel free to feel otherwise, just don't go painting millions of Thai women as gold digging whores when really you are the one shopping for fresh and hot baked bread in the frozen food section!

    I sincerely enjoyed reading up on this blog! TY TTL!
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hey Jamluv, welcome to TTL! I think it's an important point to make than Sin Sot/sod is not a uniquely Thai concept and, as you note, many countries have variations of the "dowry". Indeed, dowry or not, most women in most countries would prefer not to marry someone poorer than themselves. After all, the monetary system encourages a life of gain, not loss. So at the core this is preprogrammed into society.Clearly there are Thai women, working in prostitution or otherwise "regular" jobs that see a relationship with a foreigner as a path to a wealthier life, and sin sod is part of that path. So yes, it is imperative that foreigners seeking a partner in Thailand don't rush into relationships and date women in the same way they would in their own country. But one also has to respect that sin sod is a tradition that still thrives in all corners of Thai society, not just among bar girls, poor girls, etc. In fact, in the upper echelons of society, it is still a major part of a wedding ceremony and a chance for a man and woman to show others the wealth and success of their family.
      Reply

  7. John Reeves says

    Hi. Probably the best article I have seen on the topic, thanks !One question though. I am a bit in an odd situation.I am getting married in a week. My wife to be is 37, has never been married, left school pretty early, comes from a rural background, and clearly her family doesn't have much. I am a foreigner, same age, who used to have a decent salary working in Thailand but have been unemployed for a year now (so we've lived on my wife 15K salary and tapping in my savings (about 30K a month) during that time).Now when we started talking about the Sin Sod topic, I fell into the opposite situation from the one usually described : i.e. my wife-to-be just didn't want us to give more than 100K, half of it being in gold that she expects her family to return to her (she's done the talking with her mum, probably a mistake from my side I guess).1/ Should I reopen the topic and push to give more ? 2/ Or should I give more separately ? (i.e. a few months after the wedding, when the new job I just found will have made our finances healthier) 3/ Or should I leave this as they are since everything has been discussed and agreed between them ?Any advice will be appreciated....PS: a little bit more information just to avoid misunderstandings – My wife has a respectable job – no bar girl or anything like that – We have been together 3 years and she’s never asked me for money, never – She sends 3K to mum every month & her brother send some money too – Her dad passed away so the mum lives alone with her niece – I feel there may be something broken between my wife and her family since she doesn’t visit them more than once or twice a year, tops, although it’s only a 2-3 hours trip from Bangkok. – but this is THE one topic she never wanted to talk about. I understand there is some form of jealousy, my wife thinking her mum has always been more loving with her brother than with her… – We did set the wedding date before I found my new job here in anticipation of a permanent move to Europe (where it would have been easier for me to find a job in my branch). Although my savings were getting really low, if we left Thailand without making a ceremony and dinner party here for her family and friends I would have felt like I am stealing her from her friends and family !
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi John,I think in terms of the sin sod you have a good situation. Your wife to be obviously respects your financial position and what she is suggesting is fine. I don't think you should reopen the topic or push to give more post the wedding. It's unnecessary. Besides, your wife will most likely want to continue giving a monthly amount to her mother after you're married -- even though technically she isn't dutifully bound to after she marries.Your GF's situation with her family is not uncommon. It is often said that boys are spoilt by their parents in Thailand and get away with murder, so to speak. You'll often find the onus is put on the daughters to provide for their parents and little if anything is expected from the sons. Of course, not every situation is like this, but it is common and I'm yet to figure out how this came to be. Many people speculate that the spoiling of sons during their younger years is responsible for the prevalence of irrational, jealous outbursts, often violent, that occur in male Thai society when they don't get their own way. I don't have any scientific data to prove a correlation, but it somewhat makes sense, and my wife certainly doesn't disagree with this theory.
      Reply

  8. Israel says

    I read article and several comments, responses… now I have an itch on my own about ‘how much I should offer?’ based on my circumstances as I am currently engaged to a Thai woman. I am from U.S.A. Your input will be greatly appreciated. Please read below as I want to share the following information in order for you to assist me on financial calculations:

    1.-FAMILY NAME: In my own perspective regarding my Thai woman … family name is not an issue/irrelevant for calculation purposes (I could be completely wrong depending on your interpretation after you reading all my remarks)…. However according to her (my Thai woman), her Mother and Father is well known in her ‘village’, they are farm work class family who take care of two grandchildren (from another daughter).

    I had the opportunity to meet and live for about 5 days with my Thai woman Mother and Father which have a humble house and some farm land, no one has air conditioning and in my eyes I considered them financially disadvantage to a degree because my Thai woman has TWO older sisters*. ONE* sister lives in Chon Buri (near Pattaya city) which is married to a Thai gentleman and (I assume) both send money to my Thai woman’s Father and Mother because they take care of the two grandchildren a boy (about 5 yrs. old) and a girl (about 10 yrs. old). SECOND* sister (or brother, I do not really recall) is married and lives in England, I do not know anything else. I must say that I really like her Mother and Father (and all the characters (friends & family) in their village :)) I tried asking how much should I offer and Father answered with ‘… up to you’, I said we can discuss in the future. The only thing I can say is that I would like to help them monthly basis just like my Thai woman is been doing it (she says she used to send 15,000.00 to 20,000.00 bahts monthly for food.

    2.-EDUCATION: No University, I believe she finished elementary school or finished or almost finished high school.

    3.PRIOR MARITAL STATUS: My Thai woman was engaged to a prior gentleman but never married officially and the relationship ended. That is the only information my Thai woman has provided me.

    4.-DEPENDENTS. None (no children), unless we consider my Thai woman’s Mother & Father.

    5.-JOB. Please read: I will be honest to you my dear reader, just like I have been telling her to be honest with me and with immigration application for her to come to U.S.A (in progress). I met her at an ‘a-go-go bar’ on April 28, 2016 (before I spent several days in Angkor Wat/Siem Reap Cambodia), she was ‘bar fined’ and even though I could go out with another lady (or many ladies) with me ending up paying a ‘bar fine’ on this or other establishments, I did not do it, so before she left with ‘customer’ I told her I will be back tomorrow. Well next day April 29, 2016 I arrive late again and she just got ‘bar fined’ again, so I paid bar fine for April 30, 2016 (one day prior). I really was intrigued about her and no one else [I like the fact that I never saw her in ‘a go go bar’ outfit or dancing... ever] (believe me when I say –sexuality was set aside in my being- and to tell you the truth I know I am not the most handsome man, but I definitely do not consider myself unattractive and I could continue dating women back in U.S.A. but I have been taken to the cleaners date after date and when I finally married and now I am divorced I just have about $60,000.00 U.S. dollars in debt ). Anyhow on April 30, 2016 I told her about myself and ask her if she likes working there, which she tells me she does it for her mother and father, she tells me she does not like her ‘job,’ she tell me she sends mother and father about 15,000.00 to 20,000.00 bahts. I tell her that I am looking for someone that practice Buddhism, but most importantly someone that is willing to give their heart to a man, not just ‘body’ for compromised. I mentioned I was a combat Veteran in the U.S. military, I done many actions I am not proud off, I accept full responsibility of my past actions and expect no one to judge my past, I tell her I can certainly ignored her past if she is willing to stop working on such environment, why you may ask? because she stole my heart. I left back to U.S.A on May 1, 2016, we kept in touch, and she invites me to go with her family in her village. I book a ticket and I arrive on Thailand May 12, 2016, I tell her that if our relationship is serious, she cannot go back to work to any a go-go bar. She tells me she will stay in her village until comes to U.S.A. with me. One of her brother’s is a Buddhist monk which traveled with her family… wow was he philosophically humanistic insightful! ….
    --- I don’t know if I should mention to her family (including her brother the Buddhist Monk) about her previous ‘job’ which she did for 6 months… but if we take in consideration this section about ‘JOB’ I don’t really know how kind I should be or not offering at all… --- feedback will be greatly appreciate.

    6. AGE: 23 yrs. old about to turn 24 yrs. old.

    Please read above, analyzing fact and my current circumstance ‘should I still offer anything’? Plus, I want to be nice about offering money, but I can only offer a few because of debt, immigration procedures, my own living expenses and most importantly planning a legit future for us. I WOULD be extremely grateful for any input about my writing (please forgive spelling errors and/or side stories, but I just don’t have the time to concentrate for an accurate summary of my inquiry).

    -Israel

    FYI/PS: I told her, “if you want money, tell me how much you want, I will send you the amount you want, (I will find a way to give her the amount as I have a good paying job) and I told her after you received money I will wish you to be happy and you will not hear from me. Don’t break my heart, is all I am asking.”
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      Hi Israel,Sorry for the delayed reply but I had to consult some Thai friends on this question to make sure I'd get this right.Having previously worked as a prostitute is irrelevant when it comes to paying Sin Sod because you are accepting her as she is and choosing to marry her. Therefore a Sin Sod is still due, though of course it would be lower because of her profession. Considering her level of education and family status on the social hierarchy, the social level of Thai man she could expect to marry would probably be able to afford no more than 20,000 Baht, perhaps 50,000 at a stretch.In terms of mentioning to her family where you met her and what she has been doing for a job, don't say anything. They will know already but it won't be discussed or ever mentioned. Moreover, if it gets out as public knowledge among her village and friends and family, she will never recover. Most will probably have some idea and be gossiping anyway. In small-minded village life there isn't much people don't know about each other's business.Lastly, personally I would not mention on the immigration form about her having worked as a go-go dancer. Prostitution is illegal in Thailand and this might trigger a refusal due to doubts over her intentions when visiting the US. You might choose to say bar and not go-go bar. Perhaps you could say she served drinks or something. I'm not saying to lie, but don't give the suggestion that she was working in that capacity -- better to sugar coat the truth a bit.In terms of your own personal welfare, I'd think long and hard about what you are getting yourself in to. Consider for a moment whether you would marry a prostitute in your own country, or a 23 year old for that matter. Her family is clearly very poor, and I fear she, like many others, maybe simply see you as a pay day. Consider how different your lives have been and are currently. What do you have in common? Her education is probably very limited as most of these girls from poor families and do not finish high school.I don't want to come off as judgmental or presumptuous, but you seem like a decent guy, and I think you should take your time to know more about her family, her history and what else may be going on in her life that you don't know about.Right now she is very young and caught up in the bar scene, probably earning pretty good money for selling her body. She is only going to trade this income for something better, which means you will have to provide that better life. And by better life I don't mean in terms of love, compassion and friendship, I mean material gain for her and her family.There are thousands of fantastic single women in Thailand; many financially independent and hardworking. Maybe take your time and look around a while.
      Reply

  10. Jose says

    Hi,
    I have a gf in bkk. She works and has big, big debts. Spends more then earns. She has a Uni degree, no parents ( they died long ago) and have 8 siblings. She is the youngest. She is 40 never married and no kids.
    She keeps asking me for money or items to buy or bills to pay. I pay for what she asks many time. I just stayed with her around 21 days in bkk.
    Now we are fiance and want to marry. She asked me for sin sod to be payed to her siblings, nieces and nephews.
    I got by surprise as I was not ware of this. I asked her to explain it to me and she gave me this URL.
    Reply

    • TheThailandLife says

      I'd consider carefully before marrying someone who has such big debts and keeps spending and spending. It sounds like you will be getting into a situation that will negatively impact your life long term. If her parents are dead then Sin Sod is not relevant. Perhaps a token Sin Sod to show at the wedding to appropriate the tradition would be nice for her, but Sin Sod is not due. However, if her grand parents bought her up in place of her parents, a Sin Sod would be applicable.
      Reply

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