You will find a huge amount of misleading information online regarding Sin Sod, and conflicting experiences can be found plastered all over forums and blogs.
So, when a foreigner wants to marry his Thai girlfriend and the inevitable subject of Sin Sod arises, it is no surprise that he becomes confused over what he should be paying and why he is expected to pay it.
Part of the problem is that Thai women often don’t explain the concept of Sin Sod very well, which isn’t at all surprising, considering that for them it’s a standard tradition and an age-old part of Thai culture.
They just get on with it. It's normal. They've seen it a hundred times at weddings since childhood. And like traditions the world over, some people simply participate and follow along without really understanding the history.
I'm married myself, and I've been to a few Thai weddings in my time. But of course, if we want to know the truth about Sin Sod, the best people to ask are Thai people themselves. So for this post, to make sure my understanding is accurate, I enlisted a couple of Thai friends to help me stay on point.
Before I begin, I am not by any means saying that the information in this post is entirely definitive or one hundred percent historically factual.
However, what I can say is that the information is the experience of myself and two Thai people, both educated and well-versed in their own culture.
Contents
What Is Sin Sod?
Sin Sod is paid to the bride's parents. It is a repayment for the investment they have put into raising their daughter, and also for the loss incurred by their daughter not being readily available to support them anymore.
It is also symbolic of the groom's ability to be able to financially take care of the bride.
Sin Sod is a very significant part of the Thai marriage tradition, and something most families take seriously. However, not all families keep the money, and in the modern day it is often returned.
The Three Components of the “Thai Dowry”
To break the meaning down further, there are generally three reasons for the payment of Sin Sod, as follows:
1. Traditionally, the eldest unmarried daughter takes care of her parents until she gets married, and therefore the Sin Sod in some respects replaces that income for the parents. As you might know, it is common for a single Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.
This usually stops once she is married and has her children to care for.
So, as you can imagine, for parents with no pension plan and little savings, the Sin Sod is a much-needed payday.
Richer families, who don't need the money, usually return the money because, quite simply, they don’t need it. For them, Sin Sod is more about showing status.
2. Once a woman has been married, and/or has kids, the structure of Thai society makes it very hard for her to find a man of decent stature. Therefore, the Sin Sod acts as a sort of insurance in the event that the husband leaves and doesn't offer post-separation financial support.
The bottom line is, if a woman finds herself back living with her parents as a single mother, the Sin Sod insures that there will be some money/land in the family to support the family.
Thai society also dictates that the older a Thai woman gets the harder it becomes for her to find a job, let alone a well-paid one. So again, should she find herself alone in the future, at least the family will have some money put by for some inevitably rainy years ahead.
As you can see, marriage is actually somewhat of a risk for a young woman.
3. Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is considered repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table.
The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother's milk”.
What Sin Sod Isn't
Some refer to Sin Sod as a dowry, but to be clear, you are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her.
The Western-centric viewpoint that Sin Sod equates to the purchasing of a Thai bride is completely incorrect.
To fully understand the tradition, I think it pays (pardon the pun) to put the word “dowry” out of your mind, not least because any suggestion to your future in-laws that you are purchasing their daughter will be very offensive.
Who Pays Sin Sod?
Any man marrying a Thai woman is expected to pay Sin Sod.
The amount is usually agreed between the two families. Where a foreigner's parents aren't present, the duty falls on him to ask the family how much they expect.
Who Doesn’t Pay Sin Sod?
In the modern day, many families don’t expect Sin Sod, and many will tell the boyfriend that they don’t want any money. Indeed, many young Thai women are now rejecting the tradition because of its outdated meaning.
However, it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding, albeit that it might be returned.
It should be noted that to expect the money back, or to ask for it back, is unacceptable. One will be offered it back if that is to be the case.
Also note that you may not be required to pay Sin Sod if the woman you are marrying has been married before. See the section below for more details.
How Much Should You Pay for Sin Sod?
Historically this has (generally) depended on six factors, as listed and discussed below:
- Family Name
- Education
- Prior Marital Status
- Dependents
- Employment
- Age
1. Family Name
If your girlfriend is from a well-to-do family, you could be looking at a fair lump sum. However, in this situation the money will most likely be for show and returned to you after the wedding.
2. Education
If your girlfriend is university educated or beyond, then it is likely that you will be looking at a minimum of around 300,000 Baht. This is a low-moderate amount by modern-day Thai standards.
For example, a friend at my girlfriend’s workplace is soon to marry a Thai lady of a high-school level education and he is paying 200,000 Baht. His salary is approximately 30,000 per month.
3. Prior Marital Status
If your girlfriend has been married before then you should pay less. You might argue – on grounds of tradition – that you shouldn’t be paying at all. However, as a respectful gesture, you should offer something.
Remember that marriage is intended to happen once in Thai culture, and therefore importance is emphasized on marrying for the first time.
Unlike second and third marriages in the west, which may be seen as equally as important and “true love” matches, in Thailand they are not that much of a big deal. Celebrity second and third marriages are the exception to this rule.
4. Dependents
If your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less.
This stems from the age-old thinking that the woman is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak.
You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege.
5. Employment
In terms of a woman's employment, it's hierarchical and usually correlates with education and earnings. For example, you'd pay/show more to marry a banker than a cleaner.
6. Age
Age is a contentious and quite horrible issue when it comes to Sin Sod.
I mean, when ex childhood superstar singer Tata Young, at almost 40 years old married Prame, the son of the FairTex boxing brand owner, she commanded 100 million Baht Sin Sod.
But for a 40-year-old woman from a poor rural family and a few kids in tow, it's unlikely that more than 200,000 Baht would be on offer.
That said, the type of guys such a woman would have access to wouldn't be able to afford more than that anyway.
But who knows, occasionally a rich man does fall for a poorer woman in good old classist Thailand, and to show his wealth he would no doubt slap down a hefty sin sod.
Age comes fairly low down on the list, though, and Sin Sod is generally decided by status, family wealth, family name and accomplishment/education of the female in question.
Want to know what I think you should pay? Leave your circumstances in the comments section and I'll give you my estimate!
My Girlfriend Is Asking For Too Much!
Many foreigners find themselves in this position, and it isn’t necessarily that your girlfriend is trying to con you, more so that she is trying to secure higher face for her family, and in some cases to elevate her family's wealth.
Face is everything in Thai society. To marry a foreigner with a Sin Sod of less than 200,000 Baht would be quite a loss of face – not just for her but also for you!
The fact that she is marrying a foreigner will mean tongues start wagging in the village.
So when you say:
“What! No way! I am not paying to marry you”
Or you announce a payment less than what an average Thai guy earning 10-15k a month would pay, you get branded a “Farang kee-nock” (literally translated as bird shit foreigner, but refers to a poor, lower class foreigner), or “Keniiow” (stingy).
The folks in the village will have a good laugh:
“Why is she marrying a foreigner when he can’t afford to pay anymore than one of us folk”?
Yes, unfortunately most Thais believe, as many westerners do, that Thai women only marry foreigners for financial security, unless of course the Thai woman is richer or as wealthy as the foreigner.
Ask Her Parents
Anyway, don't take your girlfriend’s word for it, because the tradition is that you are supposed to ask the mother and father for the amount they want. It is not for the woman to tell the man what she wants. So arrange to meet with the parents and politely ask them what they expect.
They will probably say one of two things:
1. “Oh no, mai pen rai. We don’t want anything”.
2. “It's up to you”.
The first answer doesn’t mean you say, “Okay, great”, and go and buy a new car instead.
By answering in this way they are exercising their “grengjai”. They are being polite.
What they actually mean is:
“Tell us what you WANT to pay, and you will be able to tell by our body language whether we think it’s okay or not”.
So basically you need to make out you really want to pay. As you can see, this all falls in nicely with the non-confrontational Thai style.
The second answer means, “What do you want to pay… but don’t insult me”!
*It should be noted that some families might genuinely want nothing at all.
Will You Get Your Money Back?
Chances are that you might, actually. Though don't expect it.
Interestingly, there was a poll Pantip, the popular Thai website, that surveyed a number of readers, asking whether their families returned the money.
48 out of 75 families said they returned the Money. Ten families returned only some of the money. And 17 families didn’t return any money.
All This Talk of Money Seems So Shallow!
Yes, and for the most part it is.
Sin Sod is largely about face.
“Look at my daughter, she went to university and married a good man with a good job”.
Or even, “Look at my daughter, she didn’t go to university, but she is so beautiful and hardworking that she married a lovely rich foreign guy”.
As a foreigner, you may feel like you are buying your girlfriend and have become a victim of the old “Thailand ATM” syndrome. And depending on the circumstances, that could be the case.
But if you're in a secure, genuine relationship, you need to forget what the misinformed barstool gossips say and consider your girlfriend and the culture. And yes, that's right, she too needs to consider your wallet.
Like it or not, Sin Sod is a big part of Thai culture, and, as soon as a Thai woman announces marriage, the big question on everyone's lips is, “How much Sin Sod“?
Why?
Because Sin Sod is a reflection of her and her family and you and your family.
A Thai woman lives to make her family proud, to show the other villagers that they are a good family, that they are to be respected, and that they are climbing the social scale.
I Feel I'm Compromising My Western Culture
I hear you.
I come from a culture where the woman’s father is supposed to pay all the wedding costs, though it’s more a 50-50 thing in the modern day.
But think about it like this: Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices.
Without you knowing it, she will have been the talk of her village for living with you without being married – this reflects badly on her family.
Don’t forget that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture, you really should understand the culture first.
On an emotional level, you need to consider that just like every Western girl dreams of a white wedding to make her daddy proud, the majority of Thai women grow up dreaming of marrying in their home town and making their parents proud with a respectable Sin Sod, and in turn elevating the family face.
The way I see it is this: An average wedding in the UK costs £20,000. So if you pay £4,000 – £6,000 to marry your Thai girlfriend in a village ceremony that costs no more than £2,000, you still save a whopping £12,000!
That said, in the UK, you get gifts and money from your girlfriend’s family, so that does offset some of the cost.
You also get money in Thailand. Guests put money in a box on their way in. We clocked up about 15,000 Baht if I remember correctly. That was a pleasant surprise.
Truth be told, you aren’t likely to get much in return at any point unless you marry into a wealthy family, but then setting up home here is cheaper, as is taking care of a woman post-marriage.
In Summary
Sin Sod isn't a recent cultural scam made up to dupe foreigners out of their savings; it has been around for donkey's years and is an expected part of every Thai wedding, although not everyone adhere's to the tradition.
Is it outdated? Probably.
Are some Thai brides using the tradition to extort older foreign men and secure a windfall for their family? A few. Where there is money to be made there is always someone seeking to exploit a situation.
In a nutshell, it is important for a foreign national marrying a Thai to understand this tradition, to know its symbolic meaning and what a fair Sin Sod is in a given circumstance.
That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but whether you like it or not, marriage is about compromise – because it involves two people – so do your best to find some middle ground that makes both you and your partner feel comfortable.
Or, just call the whole thing off!
Feel free to pitch in with your experience. It would be really useful to know what married guys paid, or didn’t pay, and how the process was handled.
I would like to say a big thanks to Marisa and Noynar for contributing their cultural knowledge to help me write this post.
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Last Updated on
frank says
Where is the edge of trust and reality?
Nov 17, 2011 at 12:39 am
TheThailandLife says
Nov 17, 2011 at 10:29 am
Lloyd says
I don't see how the number of businesses or boyfriends plays into the equation, from all the Thais I know status is not simply viewed on shallow assumptions of what someone might earn, or have done, its is somewhat deeper than that.
Nov 17, 2011 at 11:49 am
TheThailandLife says
Nov 17, 2011 at 12:20 pm
Lioneight says
By chance stumbeled upon this page while at work.
I never write online so this feels little ackward and bear in mind that im not an native english user. Dont have much to say but i put it in anyway for others comparison.
I'm a norwegian and will be married to a thai woman this december in Thailand. Im 31 and she is 34. She graduated bachelor because the family could not afford a master and she needed to support them. She have been working as a guvernmental nurse in Lat Yao high security prison in bkk for the last 10 years. We met online 3-4 years ago and as the time went by she was the one that seemed to be on my wavelenght. She is the youngest daughter in 7 brothers and sisters. Never married and most probably even a virign. As a child she went to the temple with her grandmother before school and sat there for about 4 hours every day. Family is from UT province. Anyway, we decided after we met october last year that we wanted to marry each other. At the time we met online I did not even have a job but to be able to provide visa a stable income is a must says the guvernemt, so I got a job. She never cared about money or superficial things, a devoted Buddhist as she is. I thought i was engaged in Thailand, thai culture and my wife but when we started to plan the wedding 2-3 months ago sin sod came up which I was not very familiar with. She always said she wanted a small and humble wedding, not a village wedding. Then suddenly it escalated into a full village wedding (1000-1500 people) and a sin sod at 250.000. No gold required. She told me it was her fathers wish. I did not expect anything like this with the sin sod and everything and I did not really have any money saved for that, so it became a big downer for me. I started to read about it and found out it was of big importance for the family and the face thing so I really wanted to go trough with it and now I see it as a disgrace that some refuse to pay anything and relating it directly to dowry as its a strong part of thai culture. Both parents are alive and even most grandparents (around the age og 100 and more all of them actually). Without much detail I know they own some land and the father have rice, fish, bull, buffalo and others on the land. Not really sure what value all this can be at and what social standings the family actually have. I dont know if the sin sod will be returned or what it will be used for if they choose to keep it. Have never met them personally. I trust the woman 100% and im really looking forward to the weddign comming around the corner. Bought proposal and wedding rings with 0.5 ct center stone and a 2.6 ct total + 2 first class tickets to anywhere, anytime. Shes worth that at least ^_^
Sorry for messy writing.
Oct 09, 2011 at 6:50 pm
TheThailandLife says
Oct 09, 2011 at 7:02 pm
Reesion_ro says
Oct 02, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Reesion_ro says
Oct 02, 2011 at 12:52 am
TheThailandLife says
Oct 02, 2011 at 10:27 am
Lloyd says
Most "wealthy" Thais are not likely to ask for cash or gold, the point here is to stress the real wealth of the family, not the perceived or somewhat visible wealth as this is where the issues will arrise. I dont know anybody who is financially independant that enjoys "flashing" money around, it does not give face to those in the same "class" or financial position, arguably exactly the opposite. That is not the same as putting on a "show" for a traditional wedding but for most modern independantly wealthy Thai families the showing of the Sin Sodt no longer happens as it once did.
The Thai/Thai wedding my wife and I attended was between the daughter of one of the founding investors/directors of Sanook.com, a family with considerable real wealth whom had educated all their children at foreign schools and are well known in Bangkoks "social" scene. The groom was Thai whose family was consirably less "well off" financially, however the father and mother have high standings in the business world, the father is the principal auditor for Boonrawn Ltd (Singha beer) and a board member on two companies under the royal household. The groom was educated at Aberysthwaythe Uni in Wales and works as a software developer for Kasikorn Bank, earning around 30,000 baht per month.
In this case it was all about equality as the two family were both gaining equal "status" from the wedding, the Sin Sodt was 200,000 which was donated to the flood relief appeal, the brides wedding ring and jewelry were presents from the grooms family and were probably in the million baht range. The wdding was paid for by the brides family and was a mix of traditional Thai/Chinese and a "modern" wedding, the bride and groom paid for their own honeymoon and gifts for the bridal party etc.
The "price" for sin sodt does not work like a car, the better the "spec" and "manufaturer" the more you pay, its normally the exact opposite, poor families will seek more as they "need" the money, its is expected and the daughter would normally have been expected to "aim high" and marry above her own families "status". Wealthier familes normally seeks "status" from a wedding to ask for money and gold is seen as somewhat "crass".
If my wifes family had made out they were "wealthy" and asked for 1 million baht and 20 baht of gold I'd have wondered why, it shows a lack of respect for the future groom as how can anyone earning 35,000 baht per month be expected to borrow 2 1/2 years earnings to get married!
Oct 02, 2011 at 3:50 pm
TheThailandLife says
Oct 02, 2011 at 8:53 pm
mick j88 says
We got married in Bangkok but then a few days later went to the village for the blessing etc.I know my wife would have liked to have the full big party with the nice dress etc but i told her if she wanted that it would have to come off the sinsot and I know her parents would make better use of the cash,this they did and along with some other cash I sent they were able to build a new bungalow.
I would say though that as far as once married then the daughter is no longer expected to send money home I think you got it wrong .
My wife and I have been married nearly 6 years and I was asked for 100,000 baht sinsot which nowadays is around 2000GBP but back then was around 1500GBP.I was more than happy to pay it although at first my wife got it wrong and put an extra 0 on it making it a million by mistake, I said there was no way , this caused floods of tears and a heap of grief for me till I sat her down and asked her to re write the amount.
Since getting married my wife's mother still pressures (or emotionally blackmails) her into sending home money as no other family member helps out. Over the last year or so she has not asked so much as she knows that we have been financially struggling here in the UK . I know she expects but doesn't seem to ask as much as she knows that if we have money then we always treat the family to a day out or a nice meal but over the last 2 years we have had less money with us than on our trips in the boom years of 2004 to 2008.
I am actually proud of the help I have given over the years as it meant that for the last 4 years of his life my father in law lived in relative comfort thanks to the sinsot and other financial help I gave . I would like to think that should I ever need the support of my in laws that it will be there ( not financial, but spiritual and emotional).
chock dee
Sep 10, 2011 at 7:29 pm
TheThailandLife says
Sep 10, 2011 at 8:41 pm
colin says
I think like most traditions, it can change from family to family, like the post clearly explains. I'd be surprised if many family's accept the definition of Sin Sod the same.
From Colin, single guy living in Bristol with no experience of Thai girls or marriage.
Aug 12, 2011 at 1:20 am
TheThailandLife says
Aug 12, 2011 at 10:32 am
Lloyd says
A few things need to be set straight as your post is way of the mark factually, a dowry has and never will be paid by a groom, it is paid by the bride, and or her family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry
A "Dower", is "paid" to the bride after the wedding, nornally after the marraige has been consummated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brideprice
Sin sodt is a "Bride Price", paid to the bride, and or her family, by the grooms or his family prior to or during the wedding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brideprice
Now our experience... (long but puts it all in perspective).
I am in my mid 40's was raised in Far Nth Australia and throught Asia and have lived and worked in Malaysia, Singapore, HK and Thailand on and off for over 30 years, I am financially "independant" having been part of the "dot com" boom in HK and Australia in the 90's and having worked since as a software developer in the banking and real estate sectors.
My wife is from a small village an hour or so outside Nong Khai, she left home at 17 to work in Bangkok as a nanny for a wealthy family, at 18 she left to work at a large multinational company, Interpac LLC, on the outskirts of Bangkok, earning an average of 6000 Baht a month. She put herself through college and obtained under graduate qualifications through night school, she had never married having only taken her only boyfriend when in her late 20's and rigourously sent money home for her parents and family, in her late 20's she was "ripped off" by a Bangkok doctor after being told she needed nasal surgery after suffering health problems at work. Being broke and in her late 20's she was easily drawn to Phuket by friends with the promise she would make "big" money at a salon massaging farangs.
I met my wife whilst seated at a friends bar in Patong, Phuket, she arrived on the back of a scooter carry a huge bag, watching her walk into one of the massage "salons" oppsoite the bar I joked with my mate about "another lamb to the slaughter". An hour or so later the then unknown lady came out from the salon followed by the salon mamasan and a "heated" discussion errupted outside the salon, with the discussion heating up and seeing the new lady start to break down in tears I asked one of the girl from the bar to "sort it out". It turned out that my future wife had taken 5000 baht for her family and a bus ticket to Phuket truly believing she would be working in a "real" salon and was in shock and distressed to find out what was now expected of her.
Now to cut a long story short, after seeing how beautiful my wife was, and the sadness in her eye I made what has truned out to be the best desicion of my life, I paid "out" the debt to the mamasan, pretty much put 100,000 baht cash in the hands of an unknown lady and said I would be back in a few weeks, in the meantime she would stay at my friends hotel and work with his wife.
10 months and 13 trips to Thailand for me, 10 months of English language classes for my wife later we got married in her village, in total I paid 2.3 million baht sin sodt; 250,000 to upgrade her families house before the wedding, 150,000 for 10 baht of gold, 80,000 for the wedding which included transport for her extended family, 150,000 split between 2 sisters and her brother and 420,000 I paid to Kasikorn bank without my wifes knowledge, the balance was for her parents, to be administered by a local accountant. All of this was my "offer" and only discussed with my wife, she had jokingly asked for 500,000 baht one day saying she wanted to pay of her family farming loan at Kasikorn bank, her parents only asked that I pay for the wedding and possibly a new motorbike. The wedding was a highlight of my life to date, everything I could have never expected and even to this day brings a tear to my eye when I think back.
Am I a fool, in my opinion no, I have had girlfriends from throught Asia most of my life from all "levels" of society and nearly all my friends are in cross cultural marraiges, to me what I paid was proportional to my income and only a small proportion of what I "would" have paid for the same size wedding in Australia or the UK. I have now been married nearly 4 years and am happier than I have ever been in my life.
In my opinion to discuss Sin Sodt as if it is something that can be defined and "documented" like a financial settlement or contract shows a lack of knowledge, cultural understanding and financial insecurity, as with all relationships if you are only discussing finances when you are about to get married and your partner does not already understand you personal financial position and beliefs then you are in the wrong relationship!
Aug 06, 2011 at 4:36 pm
TheThailandLife says
Aug 06, 2011 at 5:47 pm
Lloyd says
Thank you for the offer of the guest post however I will politely decline. Several years ago I blogged about my new relationship under the title "A new path to follow" and enjoyed a good follow, the site "introduced" me to the likes of "Village Farang" and many others more "knowledgable" about Thai/Farang relationships than I. As much as I enjoyed writing I found that for better or worse I occassionally used the blog, and comments, to vent my own feeling and anger during a part of my life where all was not as it should have been. Thankfully that part of my cross cultural learning curve has now been resolved and we lived to see another day together.
Aug 06, 2011 at 10:43 pm
Steve says
In defence of TTL's post the dowry is mentioned under the heading "What Sin Sod Is Not". As you and your wife found the post such a "laugh" it would be interesting to understand exactly what your definition of the Sin Sod is other than quoting from wikipedia?? Your own personal take on it?
Cheers
Steve
Aug 06, 2011 at 7:21 pm
Lloyd says
If I was to romanticse about Sin Sodt I would have to say it can bridge social and physical devides, it can show kindness and acceptance and allow families to bridge social and cultural devides for the future of those involved.
If it is about money then there is a fundamental problem in the relationship at that point in time.
Do not take offence at my wife and I having "laughed" at such a matter, had I thought TTL was a fool or another ignorant farang I would not have taken the time, and been honest, to have replied as I did. My wife and I, like you and your wife will find out, tend to read blogs like your own and TTL's and look back and laugh at ourselves first, as you will see in time it is certainly an entertaining journey :-)
Aug 06, 2011 at 10:56 pm
Jason says
You sir are an ATM. You got jipped on the Sin Sod but I guess marriage is a great thing that you can't put a price tag on.
Best wishes to you and your Lady.
Mar 10, 2013 at 11:47 pm
TheThailandLife says
Mar 11, 2013 at 12:29 am
bobby says
Jan 22, 2015 at 11:17 am
V F says
Aug 04, 2011 at 8:34 pm
TheThailandLife says
Aug 04, 2011 at 10:59 pm
VF says
Aug 05, 2011 at 8:41 am
Lawrence Michaels says
Aug 02, 2011 at 8:49 am
Steve says
I'm glad this topic has come up. I am already legally married, but have yet to do the village ceremony in Isaan. With this approaching on my next visit I have talked about this a lot with my wife because it was becoming a concern to me. Not because I feel like I shouldn't have to pay....but with the expense of my wife's UK settlement visa application which we are submitting at the same time, I simply don't have the money.
However, I needn't have worried. My wife knew that it's just not possible for us to pay the Sin Sod, so she spoke with her mother and came to an "arrangement".
Going back to what was said above ("Sin Sod is largely about face") the only concern my wife had was about the community in her home town looking down on her family. So after explaining the situation to my wife's mother it was decided that we will have a "show" sin sod. Basically we will make a show of offering the money, which in our case was decided at 50,000baht. We will then be given back the money, which we will use to pay for the visa application. I will also probably give a small amount to my wife's mother behind closed doors anyway, whatever we can afford, just as a gesture.
I was concerned that by offering nothing I would be perceived as a "cheap charlie" and so we also made it clear to the family that when we return to Thailand in the future, after maybe a year or two when funds have recovered we will then either pay the Sin Sod or do something to help the family, even if its not accepted.
I know another guy that was in a similar situation. He too explained this to the family at the time and the Sin Sod was set at only 10,000baht.
I think a lot of guys when they hear the mention of Sin Sod panic and automatically think the family will ask for huge sums of cash, which I'm sure some families do. But I think these days it's a lot more flexible.
Personally I think if you marry into that culture then you should expect to pay at least something. Again it's just a shame that those not "in the know" have this idea that by paying the Sin Sod you are "buying" your wife. Grrrrr!!
Steve
Aug 01, 2011 at 8:39 pm
TheThailandLife says
I think it's also important to make sure the money isn't mismanaged, after all, the family should respect your gift. So perhaps put the money in a high interest account of buy some land.
Aug 03, 2011 at 1:49 pm
Steve says
When the time comes for us, to avoid such things happening my wife has talked about maybe using the money to improve her mothers home or something like that rather than giving hard cash for others to sponge off.
Steve
Aug 03, 2011 at 2:51 pm
TheThailandLife says
Aug 03, 2011 at 3:51 pm
Steve says
Well it doesn't seem that way when it comes to her own money.....a lot of which seems to vanish on the lottery when she has her "lucky" dreams :) but I guess she's better than most.
"elderly people are always at risk of being taking advantage of"
Also sad but true. As much as we like to think that the majority of the Thai people are genuine people, especially in the north east, there are still a lot that would take advantage of the vulnerable....especially when they know a farang is involved. We are after all walking ATM's in many a thai's eyes right?
Cheers
Steve
Aug 03, 2011 at 9:34 pm
TheThailandLife says
Aug 03, 2011 at 10:25 pm
Paul ??? says
Hopefully I may be able to gain some more useful help and advice after people have read my story.
To start with I would like to give you a little bit of my background as I am sure without people understanding this and from the questions I am going to ask later I will be tarnished with the name FOOL.
I am originally from the UK but have lived in Asia for the last 15 years so I am no stranger or fool to some of the scams and cons that are around.
I have 2 daughters who live in the UK from my separated wife who takes care of my children very well.
We have been separated a number of years and now have finally agreed to do the divorce paperwork.
five years ago I met a Vietnamese girl who I fell in love with she was not a bar girl and she was always loyal and truth to me.
I had a good job which I had for a number of years and we lived in Vietnam and enjoyed sharing our time together.
Then in 2012 my world fell apart.
First the company I worked for told me they was cutting back and told me to return to the UK.
I decided that I was not going to do that and set my own company up in Vietnam.
A month or so early than this I found out my Vietnamese girlfriend was pregnant we were both so happy as this was her first child and I missed my two children in the UK so it gave me a new start.
4 weeks later I became sick whilst in Vietnam after numerous doctors had told me I had flu and I didn't seem to be getting better I went to see a doctor at International SOS that took my blood called my girlfriend in and told her I was seriously ill.
They could not be sure what it was but told me I needed more tests and they could not do them in Vietnam and told me to go to Bumrungrad hospital in Bangkok urgently.
This was 3months before my daughter was born.
We left a after understanding I had no medical insurance as this was taken care of with my previous company and I had only just left them I had overlooked to sort out.
The bills were unbelievable and this had been my first mistake.
A few days later I was told I had a very rare form of Leukemia and as there had only been 5 cases in the last 25 years worldwide people were guessing on medicine and treating me for other forms of it.
Our world had fallen apart the money I had was gone I could not run the company in Vietnam as I could not return there.My girlfriend was weeks away from giving birth and she did not have family or anyone around her and she wanted to stay in bangkok with me.
My family obviously wanted me to return to the UK but I would not leave my girlfriend on her own so we stayed and struggled together.
I won't bore you with the details but lets just say I was getting more sick she did not enjoy bangkok and we had many pressures on us.
My Daughter was born on the 7th Jan 2013 and we stayed in Bangkok as although I am sick and do not understand how long I have to live I managed to secure work.
Things between us was getting strained until one morning I got up to find a letter saying she loved me but could not stay in bangkok more and put up with the pressures we had.
She said I was a good father and I could give our baby more than she could and that is why she had left our three months daughter with me.
Now on top of being sick and trying to work I had to take care of our baby I could not believe when I am dying how she things leaving our daughter with me gives her a better life.
We still speak and after 8months away we still talk and she wants to come back but I cannot trust that she would walk away again or give our baby up if things were too hard.
After she left I had to go on a. Business trip for four days and did not have anyone to take care of my child.
The night before I was due to leave I was in a bar and met an old friend who I used to buy a few drinks for previously when I was going through my bad patch.
I did not sleep with her but she was a good listener and also cheered me up.
She understand my situation and offered to take care of my baby whilst i was away.
At first I thought I could not let a bar girl that has not met her look after my child?
Later that evening I understand I did not have many choices and I asked her to come back to my apartment meet my child but sleep in a different room.
I told her I was still not sure what I was going to do.
After seeing her with my child and understanding she had a 14year old daughter and only working in bangkok for a little over a year I let her take care of her and said I would pay her.
On my return my baby did not come straight to me she clung on to the lady and I understood that over 4 days they had geled.
Over the last 6months I have met her family we have become very close she does not ask me for money and has been with my baby 24/7 and now my baby calls her mum.
When I have died my daughter has no one to take care of her and my family in the UK I feel are to old to take care of her even though they have offered.
Also If I returned to the UK I would feel like my daughter would be losing her 2nd mum and I cannot do that for her.
So this is where the questions start.
I asked the girl to marry me and she is a great mum a great truthful person certainly whilst she has lived with me .
I would have waited and not rushed into things but my time is limited and I want to try and do things right.
Ok the Sin Sod her parents have asked for is 300,000 but have promised to return 200,000 after the wedding they will pay all the bills and food etc for the wedding out of the 100k so I think that seems fair?
The major part is that my divorce from my UK wife is not through yet and we are planning to get married in April.
My future wife is telling me that we can do the ceremony in April and do the official paperwork after?
It seems a little backward to me and I don't want to go through the ceremony to find out then I have two wife's!
Is she right can we do the creamy to make everyone happy then when I get my divorce through do the paperwork later is that legal?
I understand if she is right and it's ok to do we won't be legally married until we do the papers.
Also I could do with understanding more about why and the need for giving gold and who too?
Any comments would be very helpful!
Hope I have not bored people two much and sorry for the poor English as typing on a IPad is a nightmare!
Jan 04, 2014 at 6:37 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jan 04, 2014 at 7:13 pm
Paul ??? says
Regarding what happens to my daughter legally when I am gone I think you are right I need to speak to a lawyer.
The birth certificate is Thai as she was born at Bumrungrad my name is on it and her Vietnamese mother is also on it.
She has a UK passport but effectively will not have a visa and I am not sure my Thai girlfriend will be able to adopt her as her own without permission given from her Vietnamese mother which will never happen!
Once again thanks for your reply and please keep up your website as I think it explains more clearly than some other sites I won't mention does :))
Jan 04, 2014 at 7:55 pm
Paul says
Nice start and introduction!
Just a couple of questions as you seem to be an expert in a one line statement.
1/ do you live in Thailand ?
2/ have you ever been married to Thai or to anyone for that matter?
3/ have you ever payed for Sex?
4/ could you please advise the best country to find a woman to marry that won't cost anything and that the woman will be truthful and faithful ?
As you are the expert on Thai woman and anyone marrying them I look forward to reading your answers.
In my opinion you get good and bad people in any country in any Race and no matter if you pay for Sex or for marriage or find true love it all costs you money in the long run.
The difference is the smart people identify the scammers and stay away from them.
Yes there are some Thai girls that play games and use you for money but I also see many western men play games with Thai people and pull on their heart strings.
Obviously a girl of 18 with a man of 60 is probably not with him for the right reason but if it makes him happy what is the harm in it.
Usually the only fools are not the ones that marry Thais they are the ones that come on holiday looking for love without doing the research or the people that think they can win a Thai girl over because they think she may have little education or the people that make one line comments on websites without explaining their reasons
Feb 24, 2014 at 1:32 pm
PNick says
Jul 17, 2013 at 5:23 pm