You will find a huge amount of misleading information online regarding Sin Sod, and conflicting experiences can be found plastered all over forums and blogs.
So, when a foreigner wants to marry his Thai girlfriend and the inevitable subject of Sin Sod arises, it is no surprise that he becomes confused over what he should be paying and why he is expected to pay it.
Part of the problem is that Thai women often don’t explain the concept of Sin Sod very well, which isn’t at all surprising, considering that for them it’s a standard tradition and an age-old part of Thai culture.
They just get on with it. It's normal. They've seen it a hundred times at weddings since childhood. And like traditions the world over, some people simply participate and follow along without really understanding the history.
I'm married myself, and I've been to a few Thai weddings in my time. But of course, if we want to know the truth about Sin Sod, the best people to ask are Thai people themselves. So for this post, to make sure my understanding is accurate, I enlisted a couple of Thai friends to help me stay on point.
Before I begin, I am not by any means saying that the information in this post is entirely definitive or one hundred percent historically factual.
However, what I can say is that the information is the experience of myself and two Thai people, both educated and well-versed in their own culture.
Contents
What Is Sin Sod?
Sin Sod is paid to the bride's parents. It is a repayment for the investment they have put into raising their daughter, and also for the loss incurred by their daughter not being readily available to support them anymore.
It is also symbolic of the groom's ability to be able to financially take care of the bride.
Sin Sod is a very significant part of the Thai marriage tradition, and something most families take seriously. However, not all families keep the money, and in the modern day it is often returned.
The Three Components of the “Thai Dowry”
To break the meaning down further, there are generally three reasons for the payment of Sin Sod, as follows:
1. Traditionally, the eldest unmarried daughter takes care of her parents until she gets married, and therefore the Sin Sod in some respects replaces that income for the parents. As you might know, it is common for a single Thai woman to send a portion of her salary to her parents each month.
This usually stops once she is married and has her children to care for.
So, as you can imagine, for parents with no pension plan and little savings, the Sin Sod is a much-needed payday.
Richer families, who don't need the money, usually return the money because, quite simply, they don’t need it. For them, Sin Sod is more about showing status.
2. Once a woman has been married, and/or has kids, the structure of Thai society makes it very hard for her to find a man of decent stature. Therefore, the Sin Sod acts as a sort of insurance in the event that the husband leaves and doesn't offer post-separation financial support.
The bottom line is, if a woman finds herself back living with her parents as a single mother, the Sin Sod insures that there will be some money/land in the family to support the family.
Thai society also dictates that the older a Thai woman gets the harder it becomes for her to find a job, let alone a well-paid one. So again, should she find herself alone in the future, at least the family will have some money put by for some inevitably rainy years ahead.
As you can see, marriage is actually somewhat of a risk for a young woman.
3. Where poorer families are concerned, Sin Sod is considered repayment for the money invested in their daughter. Many families sell land, borrow money and generally go without to put their kids through university, or in some cases to simply put food on the table.
The Sin Sod is essentially a repayment for that investment. The amount paid for Sin Sod could be considered relative to the sacrificial cost of bringing up the child – thus the reason it is often referred to as payment for the “mother's milk”.
What Sin Sod Isn't
Some refer to Sin Sod as a dowry, but to be clear, you are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her.
The Western-centric viewpoint that Sin Sod equates to the purchasing of a Thai bride is completely incorrect.
To fully understand the tradition, I think it pays (pardon the pun) to put the word “dowry” out of your mind, not least because any suggestion to your future in-laws that you are purchasing their daughter will be very offensive.
Who Pays Sin Sod?
Any man marrying a Thai woman is expected to pay Sin Sod.
The amount is usually agreed between the two families. Where a foreigner's parents aren't present, the duty falls on him to ask the family how much they expect.
Who Doesn’t Pay Sin Sod?
In the modern day, many families don’t expect Sin Sod, and many will tell the boyfriend that they don’t want any money. Indeed, many young Thai women are now rejecting the tradition because of its outdated meaning.
However, it is very rare that money isn’t shown at the wedding, albeit that it might be returned.
It should be noted that to expect the money back, or to ask for it back, is unacceptable. One will be offered it back if that is to be the case.
Also note that you may not be required to pay Sin Sod if the woman you are marrying has been married before. See the section below for more details.
How Much Should You Pay for Sin Sod?
Historically this has (generally) depended on six factors, as listed and discussed below:
- Family Name
- Education
- Prior Marital Status
- Dependents
- Employment
- Age
1. Family Name
If your girlfriend is from a well-to-do family, you could be looking at a fair lump sum. However, in this situation the money will most likely be for show and returned to you after the wedding.
2. Education
If your girlfriend is university educated or beyond, then it is likely that you will be looking at a minimum of around 300,000 Baht. This is a low-moderate amount by modern-day Thai standards.
For example, a friend at my girlfriend’s workplace is soon to marry a Thai lady of a high-school level education and he is paying 200,000 Baht. His salary is approximately 30,000 per month.
3. Prior Marital Status
If your girlfriend has been married before then you should pay less. You might argue – on grounds of tradition – that you shouldn’t be paying at all. However, as a respectful gesture, you should offer something.
Remember that marriage is intended to happen once in Thai culture, and therefore importance is emphasized on marrying for the first time.
Unlike second and third marriages in the west, which may be seen as equally as important and “true love” matches, in Thailand they are not that much of a big deal. Celebrity second and third marriages are the exception to this rule.
4. Dependents
If your girlfriend has kids, tradition dictates that you should pay less.
This stems from the age-old thinking that the woman is tainted in some way, already given to another man, so to speak.
You will become responsible for another man’s seed, and for that you shouldn’t be paying for the privilege.
5. Employment
In terms of a woman's employment, it's hierarchical and usually correlates with education and earnings. For example, you'd pay/show more to marry a banker than a cleaner.
6. Age
Age is a contentious and quite horrible issue when it comes to Sin Sod.
I mean, when ex childhood superstar singer Tata Young, at almost 40 years old married Prame, the son of the FairTex boxing brand owner, she commanded 100 million Baht Sin Sod.
But for a 40-year-old woman from a poor rural family and a few kids in tow, it's unlikely that more than 200,000 Baht would be on offer.
That said, the type of guys such a woman would have access to wouldn't be able to afford more than that anyway.
But who knows, occasionally a rich man does fall for a poorer woman in good old classist Thailand, and to show his wealth he would no doubt slap down a hefty sin sod.
Age comes fairly low down on the list, though, and Sin Sod is generally decided by status, family wealth, family name and accomplishment/education of the female in question.
Want to know what I think you should pay? Leave your circumstances in the comments section and I'll give you my estimate!
My Girlfriend Is Asking For Too Much!
Many foreigners find themselves in this position, and it isn’t necessarily that your girlfriend is trying to con you, more so that she is trying to secure higher face for her family, and in some cases to elevate her family's wealth.
Face is everything in Thai society. To marry a foreigner with a Sin Sod of less than 200,000 Baht would be quite a loss of face – not just for her but also for you!
The fact that she is marrying a foreigner will mean tongues start wagging in the village.
So when you say:
“What! No way! I am not paying to marry you”
Or you announce a payment less than what an average Thai guy earning 10-15k a month would pay, you get branded a “Farang kee-nock” (literally translated as bird shit foreigner, but refers to a poor, lower class foreigner), or “Keniiow” (stingy).
The folks in the village will have a good laugh:
“Why is she marrying a foreigner when he can’t afford to pay anymore than one of us folk”?
Yes, unfortunately most Thais believe, as many westerners do, that Thai women only marry foreigners for financial security, unless of course the Thai woman is richer or as wealthy as the foreigner.
Ask Her Parents
Anyway, don't take your girlfriend’s word for it, because the tradition is that you are supposed to ask the mother and father for the amount they want. It is not for the woman to tell the man what she wants. So arrange to meet with the parents and politely ask them what they expect.
They will probably say one of two things:
1. “Oh no, mai pen rai. We don’t want anything”.
2. “It's up to you”.
The first answer doesn’t mean you say, “Okay, great”, and go and buy a new car instead.
By answering in this way they are exercising their “grengjai”. They are being polite.
What they actually mean is:
“Tell us what you WANT to pay, and you will be able to tell by our body language whether we think it’s okay or not”.
So basically you need to make out you really want to pay. As you can see, this all falls in nicely with the non-confrontational Thai style.
The second answer means, “What do you want to pay… but don’t insult me”!
*It should be noted that some families might genuinely want nothing at all.
Will You Get Your Money Back?
Chances are that you might, actually. Though don't expect it.
Interestingly, there was a poll Pantip, the popular Thai website, that surveyed a number of readers, asking whether their families returned the money.
48 out of 75 families said they returned the Money. Ten families returned only some of the money. And 17 families didn’t return any money.
All This Talk of Money Seems So Shallow!
Yes, and for the most part it is.
Sin Sod is largely about face.
“Look at my daughter, she went to university and married a good man with a good job”.
Or even, “Look at my daughter, she didn’t go to university, but she is so beautiful and hardworking that she married a lovely rich foreign guy”.
As a foreigner, you may feel like you are buying your girlfriend and have become a victim of the old “Thailand ATM” syndrome. And depending on the circumstances, that could be the case.
But if you're in a secure, genuine relationship, you need to forget what the misinformed barstool gossips say and consider your girlfriend and the culture. And yes, that's right, she too needs to consider your wallet.
Like it or not, Sin Sod is a big part of Thai culture, and, as soon as a Thai woman announces marriage, the big question on everyone's lips is, “How much Sin Sod“?
Why?
Because Sin Sod is a reflection of her and her family and you and your family.
A Thai woman lives to make her family proud, to show the other villagers that they are a good family, that they are to be respected, and that they are climbing the social scale.
I Feel I'm Compromising My Western Culture
I hear you.
I come from a culture where the woman’s father is supposed to pay all the wedding costs, though it’s more a 50-50 thing in the modern day.
But think about it like this: Your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life. Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices.
Without you knowing it, she will have been the talk of her village for living with you without being married – this reflects badly on her family.
Don’t forget that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture, you really should understand the culture first.
On an emotional level, you need to consider that just like every Western girl dreams of a white wedding to make her daddy proud, the majority of Thai women grow up dreaming of marrying in their home town and making their parents proud with a respectable Sin Sod, and in turn elevating the family face.
The way I see it is this: An average wedding in the UK costs £20,000. So if you pay £4,000 – £6,000 to marry your Thai girlfriend in a village ceremony that costs no more than £2,000, you still save a whopping £12,000!
That said, in the UK, you get gifts and money from your girlfriend’s family, so that does offset some of the cost.
You also get money in Thailand. Guests put money in a box on their way in. We clocked up about 15,000 Baht if I remember correctly. That was a pleasant surprise.
Truth be told, you aren’t likely to get much in return at any point unless you marry into a wealthy family, but then setting up home here is cheaper, as is taking care of a woman post-marriage.
In Summary
Sin Sod isn't a recent cultural scam made up to dupe foreigners out of their savings; it has been around for donkey's years and is an expected part of every Thai wedding, although not everyone adhere's to the tradition.
Is it outdated? Probably.
Are some Thai brides using the tradition to extort older foreign men and secure a windfall for their family? A few. Where there is money to be made there is always someone seeking to exploit a situation.
In a nutshell, it is important for a foreign national marrying a Thai to understand this tradition, to know its symbolic meaning and what a fair Sin Sod is in a given circumstance.
That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but whether you like it or not, marriage is about compromise – because it involves two people – so do your best to find some middle ground that makes both you and your partner feel comfortable.
Or, just call the whole thing off!
Feel free to pitch in with your experience. It would be really useful to know what married guys paid, or didn’t pay, and how the process was handled.
I would like to say a big thanks to Marisa and Noynar for contributing their cultural knowledge to help me write this post.
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Last Updated on
Michael B. says
Aug 28, 2024 at 11:32 pm
Adam West says
Aug 30, 2024 at 4:34 pm
Ethan A. says
I expect to be marrying my Thai fiancee this November in conjunction with the Kathina holiday. She is 54 and divorced after a long marriage to a military man with good rank (captain level I believe). She has 2 children, a 26 year old daughter who is a veterinarian, and a 24 year old son who is in the Thai military (very low rank).
Both of her parents have long since passed away, as has her only sibling (brother). She is deeply Christian (if you can believe that in Thailand!) but is very insistent that we marry traditionally in order to be accepted by the rest of her family.
She had a fairly successful massage and beauty shop with 7 employees pre-covid, but once that issue occurred she has not been able to recover. We have completed the process of legalizing the marriage and I am sending her 25k baht per month to assist her. She is very driven to be successful of her own accord, and definitely not a scammer.
She is not terribly good at explain the customs of marriage; I think Thais just assume everybody understands the way they naturally do (but I suppose that is natural and we would all be the same). The issue of this has now come up; what do you think seems reasonable? I am not certain whether or not it would be returned to me, but she has mentioned that it would be used to offset the expense of relatives traveling to, and staying near, the ceremony.
Thank you!
Ethan
Jun 10, 2024 at 8:22 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jun 10, 2024 at 9:51 pm
Francisco Marte says
Jun 11, 2024 at 7:13 am
TheThailandLife says
Jun 11, 2024 at 7:42 pm
Ethan Adams says
Jun 11, 2024 at 8:17 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jun 11, 2024 at 8:23 pm
Ari says
My favorite thing about this article is where you say "It is a repayment for the investment they have put into raising their daughter" and follow that with you are not buying a woman or approaching her family to buy her." Anthropologically speaking, this is a bride price and buying a wife. As you said, it's a negotiable repayment for raising a daughter. At best, it's like repaying a loan. You had to purchase the loan in the first place. No playing with words makes it not buying a wife.
The other disgusting fact here is face value. Being judged on a pile of cash is nothing short of disgusting.
But, the most hilarious section here where you say "your girlfriend has probably already sacrificed many of her cultural traditions to accommodate you in her life." Like what? "Living with you and sleeping with you before marriage are two of those sacrifices." Not just are these common practices here these days, 95.6% of males and 31.4% females engage in premarital sexual relations. Nobody coerced her into having sex. Besides, Thailand can't be both the land of sexual freedom (as in the acceptance of prostitution) and be the land of conservative values.
Here's the icing on the cake: "don’t forget that you chose her as your girlfriend, and with all due respect, before getting involved with a woman from another culture, you really should understand the culture first." Agreed. It's a two way street. Asking westerns to accept the mysoganistic practice of buying a wife is unacceptable. Remember, the woman in this scenario chose to be with a foreigner, before getting involved with a man from another culture, one really should understand the culture first! No foreigner could accept this practice!
Jun 08, 2024 at 2:14 am
Ken F says
You are of course correct that a dowry was typically money paid by the bride’s family to the groom or his family but that has actually already been covered in the comments I believe. Either way Peter was referring to the current western notion (misconception) that paying a dowry is "buying a bride". This does not necessarily mean that he himself harbors any misconception about what the word means. In any case, he was actually correct when he said you are not buying a bride when you pay sin sod. To actually do so would imply that she is your property and slavery is thankfully illegal these days. I suppose you could say however that you are buying the parents blessing for the marriage in a way, but so what? After all, any Thai woman who is of legal age can marry without her parent’s permission if she chooses to do so. Basically, I think you are just bitter and angry and resentful over the fact that Thai society expects you to appease the parents in this manner in order to keep your would-be bride happy. There is a simple solution to this of course. You could go back to your own country and marry a woman there. And although this would likely cost 3 times more than the average Thai sin sod, you would have nothing to whine about since it is typically paid by the bride's parents (at least in the USA).
Jun 08, 2024 at 7:31 am
TheThailandLife says
Jun 11, 2024 at 7:46 pm
Francisco Marte says
Jun 09, 2024 at 1:41 pm
Jens Lipponer says
some of these people are vultures, never forget that. if she insists then it's only money she wants. you're better off without..
Mar 28, 2024 at 2:39 am
Ken F says
Mar 29, 2024 at 3:29 am
TheThailandLife says
Mar 29, 2024 at 5:21 pm
Stefan says
The plan is to move to Thailand in 5 years and for me to work remote, when my kids leave for university. (I will do that regardless if I marry this woman or not). Then we will live very close to her parents so she can take carer of them full time, quite possibly live in the same house or the next door.
So, I have friends with Thai wifes, so I knew about sin sod, and have a fair understanding of the sums. But I was surprised to find out her father wants 500.000 baht. It is more than double of what I expected as "first bid", because she is a a 40 year old woman, and she/we will continue to pay her parents upkeep.
I have other obligations, such as kids and my own parents, so the sum of 500.000 baht is out of the question for me. If I give that kind of money to her parents I feel I should first help my own parent a bit more, and maybe help my kids when they move out... I also don't have this money because I have just finished off paying out my exwife from my house....
I was expecting like maximum 100.000 because of her age and because we will continue to take care of the parents. Am I wrong? I feel it is unreasonable since they will benefit from me stepping into their lives and make their situation even more secure, since we will give them more every month than they get now.
My woman says the high sum is because her father do not want to loose face. It has come to my knowledge that he didn't get any sin sod from hos other daughters.... But I can't shake off the feeling he is just trying to shake me. I also feel it is a bit strange since he doesn't really need the money for financial safety, because he has two houses and farmland. He is also very old and will live comfortably if he sells off his land for the rest of his life.
Mar 26, 2024 at 2:13 am
TheThailandLife says
Mar 26, 2024 at 2:19 am
Stefan says
Mar 26, 2024 at 3:45 am
TheThailandLife says
Mar 26, 2024 at 6:46 pm
Stefan says
But I won't wait a few years. I want to live now. Because of a near death experience from an infection a few years ago I know life is fragile and if you wait to live, you might never live...
I have already spend two years dating other women and rejecting more than 20, before I met this pearl...
I am quite picky about women. I have no problem attracting women, because I am in very good shape, make good money and I treat women well. I am not looking for a "sexy lady", I want a woman with whom I can function together as a team. So I will provide for her 100%, and I want her to take care of the house hold and be sensible about money and not to be materialistic. That kind of women is very hard to find (especially in Europe). The problem is that this one is stuck on a leash with her father because she is the "good providing daughter" among her siblings and will inherit land and family house, but if she says no to her father this time she will probably lose that position, and it is her future security. I don't blame her, because from her perspective she does not know if I will suddenly leave her for another woman. The father demands sin sod before she moves to Europe.
I understand the connection and tie to the family in the Thai culture, because I origin from a culture in Europe that is very similar to this, so I already provide for my own mother and I often my siblings and cousins children when they need money.
I would go as far as pay 100.000 baht, but not more. After all, she is 40, not 25, and I am making her and her parents a financial favour by marrying her, not the other way around. We are not going to have any children oh our own. I know plenty of thai women here with western men and none of them has paid more than 100.000 baht in sin sod, the most common thing seems to be around 50-100.000 baht.
I feel like I am in a stale mate here. Maybe wait a few months and see if her parents soften up? But I don't want to invest to much time in a relationship that will never be.
So my final question is, might it be so that the father is just bartering, and just started high to take a chance, and that he might finally agree to go from 400 to 100? Or is that not how it is done at all?
Mar 27, 2024 at 12:12 am
TheThailandLife says
Mar 27, 2024 at 12:22 am
Stefan says
Mar 27, 2024 at 12:31 am
TheThailandLife says
Mar 27, 2024 at 12:35 am
Jonny says
I used to stay with someone I thought I knew a lot, but ended up getting scammed after almost a decade.
Mar 27, 2024 at 1:53 pm
Stefan says
When she came to Europe during the winter I took her out shopping for winter clothing, and she insisted to go to second hand stores in order not to spend to much. She constantly wants to avoid me paying money, she is very proud of making her money herself and providing for her parents. She is the one in the family that pay the others, so her character is very far from taking money form others.
I am also very hard person to scam. I grew up quite poor in a VERY bad neighbourhood and are used to having scammers and hustlers all around me, even in my family. I have a radar for money hungry people. I made a successful life on my own and I am, from my life as a business owner, very "careful" with my money. I even managed to keep my money in the divorce with my ex wife, because I took precautions before and during our marriage, to make sure she could not get access to my hard owned cash. I trust no one. :)
But as it looks now, I think we are still in the same stale mate. I will still go and visit her one more time in a few weeks, but her father is expecting marriage and this sinsod before she moves to me in 6 months. She is trying to speak to him, but as it looks now, he will rather spoil her life than back down. He is that kind of guy. She says she can't go against her parents. So as it looks now it will be over after my next visit. It is very sad since I have dated like 30 women before finding this one I really like.
I can always find a new woman, since I have money and is very fit. I honestly feel more sorry for her than for me.
Jul 20, 2024 at 5:38 am
Ken F says
As for your plan of someday living near the in-laws, that it not something I would ever do in a million years. I remember when I was 8 years old my mom got re-married to a Lebanese guy 20 years younger than her and when she got pregnant his parents immediately bought a house right down the street from us so that they could be close to their grandchild (they already lived in the same town). Anyway, even though they were nice people for the most part my mom at first kind of resented the way they were inserting themselves into our lives and how they wanted to dictate how the grandchild was raised. And although she eventually warmed to the idea, I have heard similar but much, much worse stories from others of the in-laws from hell moving in practically right next door to them.
Anyway, as Peter already mentioned, when you marry a girl from Asia (or the Middle East) you marry the family as well in most cases. Still, I would personally never marry a woman who is not strong enough and independent enough to lay down the law to her family and tell them that how we live our lives is our own business. And this is one of the reasons I am still with my current girlfriend. And a good friend of mine lucked out with his own Thai wife of over 20-years because she had no family back in Thailand that she was on speaking terms with so there was no family at all to try and tell her what to do. Well, he was also lucky because she was the most beautiful Thai girl I had ever seen at the time that we both first met her.
Back to the Sin Sod though, I’m not sure if the high amount is really about saving face or if this guy is simply shaking you down because he wants to get out of you what he expected to get for all the daughters combined but never ended up getting. Either way, after you do your due diligence, as Peter said, you need to have a face to face and tell him what you are willing to pay. Be polite and diplomatic of course but also be fairly assertive. And if the father refuses your offer and the girlfriend is too weak willed even at the age of 40 to stand up to her parents and marry you anyway then you are better off without her.
Mar 27, 2024 at 1:50 am
Zack says
I met a Thai girl online when she was trying to sell me a product. I never bought the product but ended up talking with her since 4 years.
Great love notes back and forth since.
I decided last month to go to Thailand to see her.
We got even closer since to the point that she is ready to marry me in May this year when I go back. Many red flags occured during the vacation last month that I could elaborate if anyone is interested.
She never in the four years asked me to send her money which created a trust.
But recently when I came back from vacation last month, she pulled out a big red flag.
She spoke to me about this Dowry when that I needed to give to her mother in order to get the authorisation to marry her. I already knew about this culture and had no issue with this considering the dollar amount of the Dowry in Canadian dollars is little compared to traditional western wedding arrangements, about 80% less. A bargain.
But the red flag arrived when she insited and pressured me to make sure that I pay her mother the Dowry of 200 000 Bahts in May when I go back. I told her that I would pay but when I decided the moment was right. To my surprise, she responded negatively with a .. well it is of Thai culture and if you don't pay my mother I will not marry you and you could find another woman. She said that her mother and family were all ready for the ceremony and waiting for this event of marriage and even had the village ready to attend. So out of deception and discourgement she responded to me negatively.
My question here is ... am i dealing with a person who just wants to marry my Dowry?
thanks
Jan 06, 2024 at 12:45 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jan 08, 2024 at 5:52 pm
Zack says
She did not ask for the Dowry before the marriage. She wants her mother to receive the Dowry on the day of the marriage. I don't have a problem with that as she also mentioned that they would take care of everything regarding the expenses , guests etc of the marriage with the Dowry. The issue is not the dowry as it is a bargain compared to western marriage costs.
The reality is that I kind of brought the marriage Idea up myself before she even talked about it. I brought the Idea last November when I was in Thailand. I kind of promised her that we would get married in May 2024 in her village.
The reason why I changed my mind and got kind of cold feet, was that she presented to me a few red flags while I was on vacation last November.
I could tell you what the red flags were. So this made me change my mind and propone the marriage to November 2024. I told her that with her red flags I needed to get to know her a little more. The thing is that as much as I saw red flags, there were many very green flags too.
Another thing was that I never met her mother but her mother but she told me that her mother did not really like me as I was hesitant in helping financially in pas demands but was open to like me if I paid the Dowry of 200000 Thai bahts.
So after I told my Thai girlfriend that I was postponing the marriage, she responded negatively by saying that I disrespected her and her foamily for not paying a dowry in May and that her mother was already preparing the marriage arrangements. She said to not talk to her anymore as we are no longer lovers.. .
So my question is.. is it of culture to react like this? was she really disappointed to the point of not wanting to talk to me anymore? Was it for a dowry? my question is.. does she sound suspicious to you?
I could enlist the red flags and green flags I experience with her in November before you answer. She also with the years video's me with her children which made me think that if she was a scam would not involve her children.
thanks
Jan 09, 2024 at 4:43 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 09, 2024 at 6:23 pm
Zack says
With the exchange of Canadian dollar to the Thai money, I get a great exchange so I have no problem helping out as I love children especially if they came in this life without asking to slave.
It will make me happy to help them and like you said I would get a young beautiful women who really would help me in my own needs. it would be a win win situation. I am not old but older... she is not a 20 but early 30's
But yes.... I never get this kind of love from a western woman.
Even when they say they love you they don't show it.
But this Thai girl when I went and see her in November, among some red flags, there were some amazing green flags which made me feel like a teen-ager again.
Jan 10, 2024 at 7:06 am
Ken F says
In any case, at this point my main concern would be with your girlfriend attitude and behavior and not with the money – particularly the ultimatums. As Peter said, I would have a talk with her and tell her how things need to be and how unacceptable her behavior was. And if she is apologetic and admits that she was out of line then maybe you can give her another chance. But if she gets defensive and angry when you try to discuss her behavior then its definitely time to walk away and never look back. Naturally anyone can get stressed out and blow up at their partner and as long as they can later talk it out calmly that’s fine. But if one or both parties are unwilling to even confront these issues and to discuss them calmly and rationally in order to resolve them then the relationship has no chance. And be aware that Thai people in general are notoriously bad at confronting anything and everything. They prefer to just pretend that problems do not exist and will tell you to not worry about it. They need to think of themselves as being these very laid back and Zen-like creatures who are unaffected by the negative aspects of life – that is until they inevitable blow up in a fit of rage. But even after a blow up they will not confront the underlying issues or talk them out as this would be admitting that they were affected by these things in the first place. It's easier just to be in denial and pretend that everything is fine.
On a side note, I cannot even fathom the notion of getting emotionally involved with someone that you will not be able to meet in person for years. I have been using internet dating sites for about 25 years now and I have had the same policy from day one. Basically, if I meet someone on a dating site (app) they have 2-week to set up a video chat and if they can’t do that then I simply move on. And if she is living in another country, I am not going to let either myself or her get emotionally invested unless I know for sure that I will be able to get to her country to meet her in person within 6-month. After all this would simply not be fair to either one of us. I do know of cases of course in which people carried on an online relationship for years before meeting and it ended up working out. But for every one of these cases there are a hundred more that were absolute nightmares which ended in nothing but heartbreak. Why even set yourself up for that in the first place?
Jan 09, 2024 at 3:45 am
Zack says
Wow you seem to know her well hahaha... exactly.. she is nice one moment and suspicious the other.. hahaha,.. Even after she realizes her exaggerated behaviors, she will never admit it but always ends up going back to the nice attitude. You know I did think of this a few times what you said, to not make a deal about her sparking moments. But to clarify, we have been talking for 4 years and I promised her 10 times that I would go see her but the Pandemic situation we lived made me postpone the date every time. So I really went to see her for the first time last November 2023 when I she through at me the red flags.
But what is particularly strange is that your situation is the same as mine , where I did not feel love from my parents and yes I think it is the same for her which probably explains the spark in humour on both sides... I like your analogy. makes a lot of sense. She is probably like you said pressured by her mother to get the Dowry as her mother probably pressured her all her life. I will ask her the question on how she was treated by her mother and this will probably be the missing piece of the puzzle.
Wow thanks Ken
Jan 10, 2024 at 6:58 am
Ken F says
Anyway, all this being said I suppose you could also look upon this major blunder as a blessing in disguise. After all you can never really know someone’s true nature until you have gone though some very stressful times together and its always better to find these things out sooner than later.
By the way, as I’m sure you are aware by now, anytime you are dating a Thai girl from a poor family they will expect you to be giving her some money every month as they think all foreigners are wealthy. And if you have not been giving her money up to this point, she is liable to catch some grief about this from her family. I remember that after I met my own girlfriend’s parents and grandmother, I was then driven around to various remote parts of the countryside to meet dozens of other relatives as well. And while they were all smiles and were all extremely friendly and welcoming, they also all told me to be sure and “take care of her” which I could tell from tone was code for “give her money each month”. And a few were even more direct and just flat out asked if I was giving her money. This is just the way things are I’m afraid. But as long as you know your girl well enough to be certain that she is not with you exclusively for financial gain and for no other reason (partially for financial gain is okay with most guys), then there is no reason for you to not help her out financially. And let's face it, if you do not know her well enough to even know for sure what percentage of her motivation to be with you is due to the promise of financial assistance and what percentage is due to her feelings for you then you have no business marrying her in the first place.
In any case, since you foolishly opened the door on marriage you probably cannot simply go back to just dating her now so you will have to decide whether or not to go through with it or to just cut your losses and run. I hate to say this but personally I think the odds on you two having a long lasting, happy, and drama free relationship together are slim to none. You simply don’t know enough about Thai women or Thai culture in general to sidestep the many social landmines. And she definitely seems to have a very volatile personality (typical of Thai women) which can only lead to grief down the road. But then again even in the west every marriage is a major gamble and most fail within a few years so what the heck. I guess we all have to commit to a future ex-wife at some point in our lives.
Jan 11, 2024 at 9:23 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 11, 2024 at 6:58 pm
Zack says
You are 100% right on everything you said.. even the part where I brought up the marriage fast for no logical reason. It's when you feel good with someone, sometimes rational thinking takes the door.
The worst is that I had a friend with me during the vacation last November who witnessed everything about her as she was with us the whole two weeks. He told me that I was promising things too fast to her.
I told him that although we only spend 2 weeks together, we actually have been talking and facetiming since 4 years every single day. We technically know each other very well.
His answer was, well facetime and real life are two different things.
You are definitely right about western culture where marriages fail, so no real guarantee in any country/culture.
I understand her reaction being sad about me postponing the marriage and her mother not liking me. But what I don't understand is why she did not explain to the mother the reason of my change of mind, the red flags coming from her while I was on vacation there.
I will take your advice though, why marry to bring her to Canada, ..just bring her to Canada ... lol .
I have 5 six flags coming from her while I was on vacation and would love opinions on this if you or any other in this forum could tell me if it's just me or are they real red flags.
I could enlist them if anyone wants.
Jan 12, 2024 at 2:40 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 12, 2024 at 6:50 pm
Zack says
Keep in mind that Before I went to see her in Thailand for the first time in November 2023, we were talking and face-timing since 4 years and every day. The phrase I love you was sent back and forth a thousand times. Also keep in mind that my friend was with us when the red flags occurred as he travelled with me.
Also keep in mind that I call them red flags but will need your/s opinion/s on if it's all in my head.
Our first destination was Phuket and she met us there on Bangla road. She already was staying at a friend's room in Phuket before we arrived and had all of her cloths there.
Red flag #1
My friend and I were waiting for her to meet us somewhere on Bangla road where all the bars and tourists are.
We texted to get the coordinates of where we were but somehow was difficult and took time to find each other.
But just before we found at each other, she passed by with her friend right in front of us and we were not sure if it was her and she was laughing with her friend and passed right by us without even noticing us This is ok as she was distracted and laughing. But when they passed by I was surprised on how much more beautiful she looked. But here is the red flag, She was wearing this very short skirt which displayed half of her behind. I was like... I hope it is her and I hope it is not. Finally after 30 minutes or so I receive a text from her asking me if I was wearing a black t-shirt... I responded yes. And then we found each other and it was instant chemistry on both sides. But just before we met she was telling me that she was at this club called Iluzion with her friend. I know that that club is full of hungry tourists and the fact that she was there almost naked was a big huge red flag for me as she always told me she was a country girl (not to disrespect bar girls as I understand they do it for survival) Even the bar girls on that street had more cloths on. So I kind of asked her (not the same night) why she was dressed like that. Her answer was... It's of Thai culture for a girl to look sexy for her foreigner who is coming to eventually marry her. I started this paragraph by saying that this is flag number one but as I am typing I kind discovered 2 more. lol..
Red flag # 2
She stayed with us every day and slept in our hotels with us, sometimes the three with my friend with two beds and sometime in two separate rooms. So the next day we went for an excursion to visit some James bond island. We took a taxi , a mini van type. So while I was videoing me and my friend talking, just before we entered the taxi's side sliding door, ,, as we enter the mini van,, I take the middle seat for me and her and my friend took the seat behind us. Now here is the red flag.... as we are about to sit down, we could not find her, she kind of disapeared, (we thought) than as the taxi starts moving we hear her voice coming from the seat next to the driver's seat, considering the front seat was high we did not see the back of her head. she was sitting there having a conversation (very loud) in Thai, with the driver. Out of nowhere almost like she knew him , almost like they were husband and wife. So that was the first time I was a little mad... she didn't sit next to me and did not even advise... just went straight and sit there next to the driver. But she did grab my arm by reaching behind and caressed it..(I thought at that poing ok.. maybe just a pink flag) . but still... that was for me a very strange experience..
When I asked her after why she did that, she looked at me as if it was all normal and I was over reacting. She sais that she wanted to sit in the front to get a chance to see the view.... lol... I said what? look at me, I am a better view.. lol and I asked her why she did not even advise me., she just smiled.
Red flag 3
we went to the beach and did a lot of walking in the markets and then when the evening hit, I wanted to go for a few drinks, she was like .. not tonight .. very tired. lets go to the hotel and relax.. so I was ok... lets go... and my friend had no issues as he was tired too. So as we entered the hotel room, i went to the bathroom for a few seconds, and when I came out, she was sitting on the bed looking at her cellular... her face looked like she needed to rush go somewhere. so I asked her if everything was ok. she was like yes, but told me she needed to go to her friend's room to wash some cloths as all of her cloths was there. I said don't worry you are tired.. we could go tomorrow and buy some cloths at the market.... she refused and said no.. I need to go now...
I found that strange as she did not want to go out as she was tired, but still ended up going out of the hotel. So I told her look it's your choice but at least come back after you washed the clothes and sleep here... she was like ok I will. Then about 5 hours passed and finally she video's me showing me that she was in pyjamas and that finally she was going to sleep there at here friend's room.
Big red flag.. was she with another man? maybe all in my head.. don't know. Finally the next day she texts me to say that she was coming back to my room and that she will never sleep or go to her friend's room ever again,, as if she had a fight or something... very strange..
Red flag # 4
One of the hotels we were staying at for 3 nights, when we came back from the beach one afternoon, we noticed that the room was not cleaned. So I told her to tell the hotel manager. So she calls the hotel manager via the hotel phone. The conversation lasts about 3 seconds... I ask her so? what did he say? she sais,, he said that the hotel staff was having a late breakfast and will come clean later, I was ok with that as I love Thai people especially hotel staff so... But then that same day, later I was outside with my friend and she was taking a shower and preparing herself. So I texted her to meet us at the 7/11 when ready.. She took a little more time than expected to come join us.. So later that day I was having some alone time with her and my friend went for a motorcycle ride. When I came back to Canada, my friend told me that when he went for that motorcycle ride, he crossed the hotel manager who told him that my girl was crazy (I don't know why my friend told me this story on 2 weeks later when we were already in Canada but)
He told me that the hotel manager told him that she screamed at him and cleaning staff that day we were waiting for her at the 7/11, giving them shit for not cleaning the room... That insulted the manager as he was not expecting this from a Thai girl who especially was not the one paying.
So when I asked her about it after, she was surprised and said that all of this was false and that she was going to go see that manager to find out what the hell went wrong? I told her to forget about it ..not important... and she was like ok. as you wish.. oh boy.
Red flag #5
We visited the Big Bouddha on top of this tall Mountain.. as we were walking the three of us and taking pictures, she suddenly disappears
I was like... where the hell did she go? finally sa few minutes later,, I decide to call her... she answers by saying LOOK behind you... she was behind us on a high deck where the bathrooms were...
So I am like what the hell? So I asked her why she suddenly disappeared and her answer was .. well I did not want to bother you guys as you are busy taking pictures...
I was like that doesn't make sense... you don't bother me... you bother me when you disappear lol and without notice... AGAIN..
Now these red flags are the ones I remember as they really had an impact on me.. but the latest red flag was when she told me that when I go back there in May,, considering her mother is mad with me that I am not marrying her daughter right away and that her mother is not getting the Dowry, she sais it's better that I don't go to her village as her mother will be embarrassed to see me, even the people of the village will laugh.. wtf. lol
So here are the flags.. let me know guys if I overreacted , is it culture... is it that what she did is normal in the culture or in her mind? let me know guys.. thanks
Jan 13, 2024 at 10:33 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 14, 2024 at 9:24 pm
Zack says
thank you
Actually she did not move to the tourist areas of Phuket.. she just went there to meet me but went there ahead of time and stayed at her friends place. She works as an accountant , office work and since a long time so this is how she makes her earnings.. but what I need is advice on the red flags.. are they red , yes or no? .. is it all in my mind or should is she really suspicious?
Jan 15, 2024 at 2:39 am
TheThailandLife says
Jan 15, 2024 at 4:19 am
JamesE says
Jan 15, 2024 at 7:14 am
JamesE says
Jan 14, 2024 at 11:32 pm
Zack says
Jan 15, 2024 at 2:34 am
JamesE says
This whole thing you describe just feels wrong.
Jan 15, 2024 at 7:12 am
Ken F says
In any case, let me point out a few things to you here. First of all, you mentioned that her dressing provocatively was a “red flag” because she had told you she was a country girl. Well, I hate to break it to you but 99.99 percent of all the bargirls and freelancers in Thailand are country girls. That is where they ALL come from. The more affluent girls from the big cities like Bangkok do not become prostitutes. Every single bar girl or freelancer started out life as a nice normal sweet country girl. Furthermore, 90 percent of the Thai women who go to the nightclubs on Bangla Road in Patong or walking street in Pattaya are either freelance prostitutes or off duty bar girls. And even some of the girls who go to these places who have regular legitimate day jobs are often there moonlighting, so to speak, and hoping to earn some extra money by going home with a guy. We used to have a term for these kinds of girls, but I cannot remember it at the moment. Of course, there are also a handful of somewhat normal Thai girls in these places who are just looking to have fun with friends. HOWEVER, while some of them might wear sexy short skirts or dresses in some cases it is never going to be so short that her ass is hanging out. Only bar girls and freelancers will have their ass cheeks on display. I’m not saying that it is completely and utterly out of the realm of possibility that an accountant might dress like this, I’m just saying that its extremely unlikely. By the way, the best way to know that you are in a nightclub frequented by normal Thai women is to look around and see if there are any Thai men there. If it's all foreign men and beautiful young Thai women, then you know what kind of a place you are in.
In any case Peter was absolutely right when he said that you should be curious where her money is coming from and later that you should investigate further. In fact, I will tell you a little story that illustrates this point about knowing where the money comes from.
After moving back to Thailand a few years ago I was really bored that first week back as I was not really into the bar scene there, so I started looking through my Line list of Thai women I had met online while back in the States. Anyway, there was this one girl that was particularly stunning, but she had never seemed to be that interested in talking so I had given up on her 6 moths earlier. But now looking at her profile I saw that she had just recently moved to Phuket from Buriram, so I decided to give her one last try and this time she was chattier, and she agreed to meet me at Paradise beach. After meeting she was at first a bit guarded and quiet but once I managed to get her laughing her whole demeanor changed and we talked up a storm and had a great time and a lot of laughs. We later went out to a nice dinner and although we did not sleep together that night I could tell when I dropped her off at her place and we said good night that she was already starting to fall for me. After that night we were basically inseparable, and things were going great but there was also one nagging issue. The problem is that although I knew she was from a poor part of Thailand she seemed to have loads of money to throw around - a lot more than me. For example, she would spend crazy amounts on designer clothes and accessories when we went to the Central mall, and she would even pay for our meals and drinks sometimes. And yet she also seemed to have no job to speak of and since we were together 24-7, I would know if she did. I of course knew that this could only mean one thing so on our third or fourth dinner together I asked her about it, and she was very honest with me (I would have known if she was lying anyway) and confirmed my suspicions by telling me that she had not one, but two sugar daddies. One was apparently pretty wealthy, and he even bought her a 100,000 baht motorbike on her next birthday. Now, normally at this point I would have stopped the sexual relationship right then and there and told her we could still be friends. But by this time, I liked her so much that I actually told her that I could be okay with it and continue seeing her as long as she continued to be honest with me and as long as it was no more than these two guys. Obviously though it was not easy knowing that when one of these guys was in the country she would have to go off and spend a few weeks with him. And she could not tell them that she had a boyfriend. I would also eventually come to feel guilty that she spent money she got from other guys on me sometimes and that they were completely supporting her and not me (she knew my retirement income was next to nothing). In any case, even though she truly believed that she was deeply in love with me and that she could not live without me she would eventually end up sabotaging the relationship and causing it to come to an end. And either way the typical Thai girl drama would have ended it eventually anyway. As I said before Thai women are just very emotionally immature and this basically means that they exhibit behavior that while normal in small children is not normal in adults. For example, this girl was very self-absorbed even when in love, much like a small child would be. For example, a small child will truly love her favorite stuffed animal or pet and would be devastated to lose it and yet she does not really ever consider the feelings of the pet. She will pick it up for a hug or to play with it even when its sleeping and would rather not be bothered. And she does this because it's all about how hugging the animal makes her feel and not about how the pet might feel. Well, this is pretty much how this girl loved me. She wanted me there because I made her feel all warm and fuzzy inside and safe and secure. She needed to feel loved and in love but being so self-absorbed she was still incapable of considering my own wants and needs – we have all seen this in children. Even sex was all about her and if I ever did not want to do it because I was sick or had a back injury or because she was on her period, she would just keep nagging me. And if that did not work, she would just jump on top of me when an opportunity “arose” and would ride me like a bull. But you can bet that if she ever did not feel like it she would not do it just to make me happy. Like I said, it was all about her. In any case, after that relationship ended, I decided to stick to dating mostly students or young professional and I eventually met my current girlfriend – who admittedly is herself somewhat self-absorbed and otherwise emotionally immature.
Looks like I got a little carried away there, but the point of the story is that common sense told me what the situation was with this girl before I even asked her about it.
As for your situation I don't know what to tell you. I think at this point I would personally be more concerned with her basic personality and character flaws than i would be with anything she was hiding from me. After all, if she is not compatible in the long run and would ultimately make your life a living hell then her past is pretty much a moot point anyway. But then again since finding out that she has been lying and hiding things about herself might be the only thing that would convince you to move on then maybe you should investigate further.
By the way, I know your girl does not live in Patong, but you should still know that in Patong you would have a better chance of finding a four-leaf clover than you would a nice, unattached, super attractive girl who is not a freelancer or bar girl. This is the reason most girls move there in the first place. Granted I have also known plenty of nice normal Thai women who have moved there for normal jobs. After all, lots of tourists means there is money to be made in all kinds of businesses. The problem of course is that any really attractive nice Thai girls who move to Phuket to work a customer facing position are going to get snatched up and taken off the market by some other Western guy practically before they can even unpack their suitcases. So basically, by the time you come across her she will either have a boyfriend or be married. And it’s the same story in Pattaya I’m afraid.
Jan 15, 2024 at 8:40 am
Zack says
You are right. it's obvious.. don't touch it.. you will get burned. lol
But the reason why I ask the questions is that my friend kind of created a grey zone when he said that I was over reacting on some red flags and that it was probably of culture.. So the Kettle for me is still warm.. lol
Regarding the girl. she does not live in Patong.. she lives in Ubon with her parents and two children of hers. She works in Bangkok full time and goes once in a while to Ubon to spend time with her familly. She only went to Patong to meet me and my friend there and she has a friend who is a freelacer who she spent a few nights with her before we met ..
But one other red flag I forgot to mention was that she told me that most of her friends are freelancers but she did not take the same road as them.. she told me she kept those friends because they were high school friends..
Jan 16, 2024 at 6:27 am
JamesE says
Your friend is saying that some of your red flags may be cultural, right? But what he's really saying is that the rest of them are actual RED FLAGS! Most of her friends are freelancers???!!! If you saw a flock of ducks would you expect to see a kitten in their midst? Nope. They'd all be ducks. She isn't living living in Ubon with her parents and children. She's living in Bangkok with freelancers. And then going for visits once in a while.
And that whole "office job" nonsense? Don't believe it until you see a stack of pay stubs.
I know you really want to ignore this and follow your heart but before you do, print this thread out and keep it for reference when everything you're being warned about comes true.
Jan 16, 2024 at 11:47 pm
D says
Jan 16, 2024 at 11:50 pm
TheThailandLife says
Jan 17, 2024 at 12:02 am
Ken F says
First of all, when your girlfriend said that she did not feel like going for a drink that night she already knew that she was going to have to duck out on you for the entire night, and I guarantee you it did not have anything to do with laundry. This is actually a pretty common tactic with Thai girls, particularly with freelancers, bar girls, or those who are simply juggling multiple “boyfriends”. In fact, sometimes when a bar girl or freelancer only wants to do short-time but the customer insists on long-time the girl will agree to this so as to not lose out on a customer, but she really has no intention of keeping the agreement. Basically, after about an hour or two she will conveniently get a call from a friend who is supposedly in serious trouble and so she must leave right away to help her friend out. I used to have a lot of friends in the industry, so I know all the tricks of the trade. Some guys actually believe that Thai girls are really great liars but the truth is they are terrible liars as they are either too lazy or too unimaginative to make up believable lies that do not completely insult one's intelligence. Anyway, I cannot say for sure whether your girl was meeting a guy or not that night but either way, the fact that she was not honest with you as to why she did not want to stay with you that night is a very bad sign. Hopefully the sexual relationship is at least good.
By the way, why were all her clothes at her friend's house to begin with? She should have had one small suitcase with enough clothes in it for a two-week vacation and that suitcase should have been with her at your hotel the entire time you were there. Furthermore, if she really has an office job in Bangkok the most paid vacation time, she could get would likely be two weeks a year which means she could not have arrived in Phuket more than 24-hourse ahead of you and therefore there would have been no need to unpack all her stuff in her friend's house. Speaking of which, why did she go to Phuket ahead of you? When I have been in that situation, I would always meet the girl in Bangkok first and then we would fly together to Phuket. Of course, maybe you took a direct flight to Phuket which did not go through Bangkok. And maybe she just wanted some time to go out and party with friends before you arrived. Either way, you really need to confirm that this girls' friend – who I already had guessed was a freelancer- is not actually her roommate and that she is not actually living in Patong with her – or if living in Bangkok confirming your girl really is a working accountant. Speaking of which, if so, she may have now used up all her vacation time which means the next time you go to Thailand she will be at the office all day and will only be able to see you in the evenings and on weekends. She also will need to use some of her yearly vacation time to see her kids so you will eventually need to go up there with her whether her mother likes you or not. And let's face it, you will need to straighten things out with the mother anyway and this can only be done in person. The good news is that if she really is an accountant in Bangkok, she is likely making a very decent salary by Thai standards.
Incidentally, when you video chat with her are you always able to confirm that it is from the same house or apartment? Remember that girl I mentioned the other day with the sugar daddies? Well, she would sometimes have to take video calls from these guys while at my place and she would often go into the bedroom, turn the light out, and pretend she was sleeping before taking the call. This way in the dark they might not notice that she was not at her own apartment. She would also sometimes go outside to take the call or would say she was at a friend's house. It was all lies and these guys stupidly believed it all. Well, they actually probably knew something was up, but they just convinced themselves that they were being paranoid. Does any of this sound familiar?
Anyway, as myself and others have already mentioned, the outfit your girl wore that first night – or at least as you described it - was indeed a big red flag. Regular Thai women can certainly dress sexy, but it will usually be classy as well as sexy. For example, the smokin’ hot real estate agent who found me my first long term condo rental in Pattaya used to go out to Lucifer night club sometimes wearing some pretty short and sexy dresses, but they were also classy looking. And I once dated a girl in Pattaya who I first met at the department store in which she worked and when she went out to the clubs she liked to wear form fitting dresses that were only cut about 2 or 3 inches below the crotch. But again, she did not look trashy. My current girlfriend is a college student so naturally she wears a schoolgirl uniform during the day but she likes to dress sexy when we go out at night. She likes mostly full-length dresses (mermaid style) that while form fitting enough to show off her curves are also very classy and elegant looking - kind of like a prom dress. What you described however sounds more like something that only a freelancer or bargirl would wear. Unless you were over-exaggerating how risqué it was that is.
Of course, even if all this stuff eventually checks out there is still the problem of how she allegedly treated the staff at the hotel. If true, this would be an immediate deal breaker for me, and it should be for you as well.
As for your girls' girlfriends, I have known girls who have had bar girl friends but who were never sucked into that life themselves. But then again, I have also known some who were. Bar girls and freelancers are often trying to talk their non-bar girl friends into coming over to their side and often times it works if the girl does not make enough money at her current job.
Jan 17, 2024 at 3:40 am
Ken F says
Jan 14, 2024 at 8:35 am
Francisco Marte says
Jan 15, 2024 at 12:05 am
Zack says
Like I mentioned in my previous comments, I never got a clear advice from my friend. He sometimes told me to relax as her red flags are not necessarily red as it could be of culture. And on other occassions he told me that she is suspicious.. So I kind of got a grey zone evaluation from him.. This is why I write here as I want opionions of other people even if they are total strangers. I really think that sometimes people outside of the box can have an even clearer picture and bring excellent advice.. On the other hand I don't rely on my body harmones or parts to decide for me.. I really go with my head, .. this is why I write here.. I need peoples point of view.. What I need to know is from the outside,, the red flags I enlisted... are they really red? opinions on them.? thanks
Jan 15, 2024 at 2:47 am
Francisco Marte says
Jan 09, 2024 at 4:18 am
Zack says
I never met her parents so cannot bring judjement. And I was the one who suggested a marriage.. but then changed my mind because of her sudden rush to pay the Dowry. She wanted me to pay it on the marriage day, but the problem is that after I told her that I changed my mind about marrying as I needed to get to know her better, it's here reaction which was.. go find another man ... because for her it is of Thai culture and a man that does not pay a Dowry is not a man worth talking to.
Jan 10, 2024 at 6:40 am
BRUCE SPILLER says
Jun 09, 2024 at 6:39 pm
David says
Can you not have an informal wedding? Why must the tradition be adhered to so strictly on little rational basis?
If your girl insists on this I would give way provided the money will come back to you at the end of the ceremony. If not and she is happy to break up with you because you don't like Sin Sod I say you dodged a bullet. Ditch and switch. People who are so stuck up with their traditions are not marriage material in my book. It tells something about her intellect and how she thinks in general or she is just a gold digger in disguise.
Jul 23, 2023 at 3:38 am
Ken F says
That being said, I still have to admit that I sometimes don’t understand all the bellyaching some people do over sin-sod. After all, there is no law which says you have to pay it. It’s simply a matter of choosing to pay it or choosing not to pay it and we should all be able to make the decision without any drama or hard feeling about it. Besides, there are so many landmines and pit falls associated with dating Thai women to begin with that the sin-sod thing almost seems inconsequential in comparison. In fact, although I am constantly defending Thai women and educating idiots to the fact that the vast majority of them are not scammers, gold diggers, or prostitutes, I am also often trying to warn Westerners of the other very real pitfalls of dating Thai women in general. I have just never felt that Thai women were particularly psychologically compatible with Western men. Actually, when I think of dating Thai women I am often reminded of a Bible verse I heard as a kid which stated that “it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God”. Only I would argue that its just as valid to say that its easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a Western man to find a Thai woman that he is truly compatible with on every level. But of course, the vast majority of men who come here to find a Thai girlfriend or wife are willing to completely overlook all these compatibility issues in order to just have a steady basic sexual partner and companion who is willing to put up with them. By the way, when expats argue this point with me, I usually respond by asking them how many male Thai friends they have and how much they enjoy watching Thai movies and TV shows. After all, if you are compatible with a society - and therefore its women - you are also going to like the TV shows and you will be equally compatible with the male members of that society. Basically, you should have no trouble finding Thai male friends that you can really connect with and who you enjoy hanging out with just as much as you do your best mates back home. And yet very few western men who live here with their Thai wives or girlfriends can say this - if any. And even the guys who do nothing but complain about Thailand all day long still chose to live in Thailand with a Thai wife or girlfriend.
Of course, on the flip side of that coin we have the expats and long stay tourist who have this over idealized image of the Thais and Thai culture which simply does not jibe with reality. For example, it always cracks me up when Westerners talk about moving to places like Thailand in order to “leave the rat race behind” or to live a more minimalist and less consumeristic lifestyle. The reason it cracks me up is because if they were to ever peer beneath the surface of Thai society they would realize that people here are even more set on keeping up with the Joneses than we are in the USA. Poor people living in the countryside in Thailand for example are constantly going deeply into debt buying things they do not really need and cannot even remotely afford. But rather than going into credit card debt as we do, they are constantly “borrowing” money from friends, family, co-workers, etc. – money which they will never be able to pay back. Haven’t you ever wondered how a poor Thai family in the countryside making less than 15,000 baht between them can make the payments on their 600,000 baht car loan? The answer is that they cannot – not even when they are living on family land and therefore might not have to pay rent. Furthermore, I can think of 2 Thai women I know right now who went for months and months without a phone because they would rather have nothing at all if they cannot not figure out a way to have the latest iPhone. And back in the early 2000’s I knew women who would purchase expensive western designer jeans on an installment plan. Can you imagine going into debt to have a pair of designer jeans? And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Also in many cases instead of working either harder or smarter and getting good at budgeting, poor Thais might waste money on get rich quick schemes that have no chance of success or spend money on lottery tickets hoping for a big payoff. And daughters are often raised with the same mindset that one would raise a water buffalo. In other words, you spend money to raise it in the hopes that it will grow up to be a prized specimen so that it can make you a boatload of money. The bottom line is that anyone who thinks that the Thais are not just as materialistic and consumeristic as we are, is frankly just kidding himself.
Anyway, because people here in Thailand are always genuinely friendly and inviting and are always smiling, many Westerners come to the mistaken conclusion that the Thais have somehow got life all figured out, but let me assure you that nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, pretty much every single Thai woman I have ever met, both rich and poor, over the years has showed unmistakable signs of being raised in an extremely dysfunctional family environment – not to mention one in which they most certainly did not receive unconditional love. Many were even slapped around growing up, not only by the mother and father but often by other relatives as well – the same people that when you meet them in person you will think are the nicest and friendliest people in the world.
I have said this many times before but there is a huge difference between being a person who is so spiritually enlightened that he is not affected by the negative aspect of life, and simply being a person who was raised in a society that conditions you from birth to suppress the outward appearance of being affected by these things and to never confront or even acknowledge the existence of any problems. And this last bit can naturally cause some problems. For example, if you have a problem either at work or in a relationship in the USA you would have a discussion with your work team or your girlfriend in order to find a solution to the problem. If you do this in Thailand however the employee, co-worker, or girlfriend, etc., will simply tell you to “not worry about it” or “don’t think too much”. In other words, since they will never confront the problem, nothing ever gets resolved and nothing can ever move forward. And of course, when things do get done they are done in a very slip-shod manner. Thai culture, rather than leading to enlightenment, actually only leads to sloth, inefficiency, and ultimately stagnation. That’s not meant as a put down by the way, it's simply some constructive criticism from someone who has been studying the human mind and human societies in one way or another his entire life. I think probably the best way to describe Thai society is to think of the character Jeff Spicoli from Fast Times at Ridgemont High, or Jeffrey Lebowski from The Big Lebowski. These two guys are about as chill and laid-back as a person could possibly be and they just kind of go with the flow and don’t let anything bother them or drag them down for the most part. But they are also fairly irresponsible and completely lacking any motivation, drive, or determination. They also tend to avoid any kind of confrontation or responsibility even to the point of being unable to confront their own issues. They also have no work ethic and take no pride in their work and as such they would make horrible employees. They just always want to take the path of least resistance and will just do the absolute bare minimum to get by, if that. Anyway, while it might be fun to hang out with these guys and be friends with them at first, you would eventually find them to be much more of a liability than an asset as friends and you would feel like they were dragging you down psychologically and holding you back. And this is actually one of the many reasons I will be leaving Thailand soon.
Jul 24, 2023 at 4:29 pm
Francisco Marte says
Jan 09, 2024 at 4:20 am
John D. says
I have asked a good lady to marry me. I mostly expected that sinsod would be part of the deal based on what I have read and known. But the amount is much higher than I expected, though I think my sources are dated and biased against sinsod.
My fiance is mid 30s with a child. I am a bit older, if that factors in. No bargirl history, divorced for more than 10 yrs, after a 3 yr marriage, has had several 'callers' since, dated one briefly, but gave up on thai men who she believes are only looking to live off her hard work. She has some college but not graduated. She is not the oldest or youngest but by far the most successful. She does reasonably well, even by western standards imo. Her child attends private school, she has private health and life insurance, always has a new phone, is buying her own modest home (a/c+real windows! 555) which she just remodeled, eats out when she wants, has plenty of gold, some she wears but doesn't flaunt it.
Several of her extended family are wealthy, but not HiSo money. They have some influence in her city. She supports her mother via her own successful startup business in this same medium size city. IE, they are not village denizens nor farmers (anymore).
Her mother relies on the wisdom of extended family who are stating about 500k. FYI she has a young neice (some college, no job-lives off daddy's money) who a few yrs back, commanded over 750k baht from a thai husband.
My fiance said this number is not based on my foreign status.
What do you think? It does seem equitable based on my recent research, but I read alot of sites that say no sinsod for second marriage w/ kid. I dont want to lose face over a minor % discount of that number but curious if this amount seems out of line.
She has told me her mom plans to keep the sinsod to which my fiance replied, that she would no longer need her support.
Thanks for your insite. Great site, and hope you are doing well.
Jul 21, 2023 at 8:06 am
TheThailandLife says
Jul 21, 2023 at 4:06 pm
James says
I am daying a Thai girl and the aspect of sid sod has come up. My partner is an office worker with a university degree from a family that owns a small laundrette on the outskirts of Bangkok. I respect the culture and I'm willing if the relationship continues to adhere to it.
However, I feel the amount asked is large. In addition, the amount seems to be coming from my partner and not necessarily her parents. She is an only child, both parents still alive. She has stated it would be 1 million bhat.
Could you advise. Thanks
Jul 16, 2023 at 9:25 am
TheThailandLife says
Jul 17, 2023 at 3:29 am
TheThailandLife says
Jul 17, 2023 at 4:09 pm
Ken F says
Jul 17, 2023 at 5:09 am